Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?
nce saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?
There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation, no matter how many bad things you may end up doing in this life. The Bible says that we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with the Lord and that nothing can break this seal, no matter how many bad and evil sins a person may commit after getting saved.
Others believe that God will not be mocked, and that you can lose your salvation if you get into some of the heavier and more evil types of sins.
I believe there are several verses in Scripture that really do answer this question, with one verse in particular. After studying these verses very carefully, it is my own personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved. However, I do believe that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen.
I believe the seal we have with the Holy Spirit is a very strong and powerful seal, but that this seal can be broken if this person with their own free will has chosen to live this life on the darker side. I will go ahead and give you the main verses from Scripture that deal with this possibility.
You will each have to judge and discern for yourself as to whether or not you feel these verses are implying that a Christian can lose their salvation.
For those of you who are really wanting an answer on this issue, I would highly recommend that you study these verses very carefully, and then ask God the Father, through the Holy Spirit, to give you His direct answer on this issue due to the extreme importance of it.
What follows is just our own personal opinion on this issue. You will each have to get your own answer from the Lord on this issue since there is such divided opinion in the Body right now on this question.
1. A Falling Away
In my opinion, this first verse hits the nail right on the head. Here is the verse, and then I will point out several key phrases showing that it might be possible for a Christian to lose their salvation with the Lord.
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For the earth which brings in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8)
First, notice the specific wording being used to describe what I believe is a saved and born again Christian:
- Those who were once enlightened
- Have tasted the heavenly gift
- Become partakers of the Holy Spirit
- Have tasted the good Word of God
You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you are saved and born again. Only Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation with the Lord. Nonbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of them. You can only be a partaker of the Holy Spirit if you already have Him living on the inside of you.
Only a Christian can truly “taste the good Word of God.” Unless you have the Holy Spirit living on the inside you, you can never fully understand the Bible because all of the Bible was really written by God the Father through the Holy Spirit. Much of the Bible has to be spiritually discerned and this is done by and through the Holy Spirit. It is the job of Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to guide us into all truth.
As a result of the Holy Spirit helping you to understand the Bible when you are reading it, you then start to become “enlightened” as the above verse states. You cannot become truly “enlightened” unless you already have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you, and He is working with you to help you understand the spiritual truths that are in the Bible.
Put it all together – you cannot be truly enlightened, be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have the ability to “taste” the Word of God and the powers of the age to come unless you are a born-again Christian. I believe these specific words being used are showing that this verse is specifically talking about Christians.
And then watch what it says next: “For it is impossible … if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance …”
I think the key words in these phrases are “if they fall away.” What is considered a “falling away?” Obviously God the Father will be the final judge on what is considered a falling away from Him.
A good example might be someone who turns completely to the dark side and decides he wants to worship Satan direct as a result of the wealth and power that Satan may be able to give him while he is still living down here on this earth. There have been documented cases of priests and ministers who have literally “sold out” to the devil in exchange for more of the material and lustful pleasures of this life. They have literally become true Satan worshipers. I personally think something like this would qualify as a “falling away” – a deliberate turning away from God to serve His adversary, the Devil.
Other extreme examples would be Christians who have decided to join and live in some type of organized crime, who get into killing and murdering others for their own gain and profit, men who become rapists or serial killers, etc. As you will see in some of the other verses listed below, God will not be mocked. I believe that some of these heavier types of sins can cause a Christian to lose their salvation if they do not get these heavier types of sins confessed and forgiven with the Lord before they die and cross over.
Notice the above verse also says that: “For it is impossible … to renew them again to repentance” if they fall away into the more heavier types of sins. The key word is “impossible” – meaning that God is not going to allow them to come back in after they have probably passed what may be considered some kind of “point of no return” with Him. The Bible tells us that the Spirit of God will not strive with a man forever.
Put all of the above together – and I think that the above verse is telling us that it is definitely possible for a Christian to lose their salvation if the “falling away” is considered to be serious enough and extreme enough in the eyes of God.
2. Sinning Willfully After Receiving the Knowledge of the Truth
This next verse is another real scary verse. The above verse talks about a “falling away” that could cause you to lose your salvation. This next verse goes another step further and specifically talks about “sinning willfully” after we have already received the knowledge of the truth from God. Here it is:
“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31)
Notice the first part of this verse says that if we “sin willfully” after having already received the knowledge of the truth. Again, I believe this wording could be implying that we are talking about Christians.
The second part of this verse seems to confirm that possibility when it talks about trampling Jesus underfoot and insulting the Spirit of grace, which is the Holy Spirit Himself. Then notice it says that “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” in direct reference to the statement about sinning willfully after having already received the knowledge of the truth.
I believe the words “no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” is implying a definite loss of salvation if someone has pushed the envelope too far with God the Father.
3. Becoming Entangled Again in the Pollutions of the World
Here is another verse that matches up with the verse mentioned above. It talks about, after having already received the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the dangers of returning back again to the “pollutions of the world” from which we have just come out of. Here it is:
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20)
Again, I believe this verse is specifically talking about Christians when it talks about escaping the pollutions of this world “through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” You cannot have true knowledge about Jesus unless you have become saved and born again by accepting Him as your personal Lord and Savior.
Notice this verse specifically states that it would be much worse for you to have become saved and then turn back to your old sinful ways into the pollutions of this world than to never have become saved in the first place.
The key phrase in this verse is “the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.” The word “beginning” is referring back to when we were not saved. If you are not saved, you cannot make it into heaven. What could be worse than never being saved in the first place. However, this verse is going one step further and it is literally telling us that it would be worse for us, after initially getting saved, if we once more return back to the sins that we were operating in before we got saved.
If that is worse than never getting saved in the first place, then I believe this verse is another one telling us that it is possible to lose your salvation after initially getting saved.
4. 22 Specific Sins That Could Keep You Out of Heaven
If some of the above verses are possibly implying that you can lose your salvation – then what are some of the specific sins that could cause you to lose your salvation? These next two verses will give you some of those specific sins.
Are these next two verses talking about Christians or nonbelievers? If you match these two verses up with the ones listed above, then I believe that some of these sins, if being committed by Christians on a regular and frequent basis, could get them into major trouble with the Lord and possibly be endangering their salvation with Him. Here they are:
- “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9)
- “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19)
Notice the sin of adultery is specifically mentioned in both verses. Does this mean any Christian who regularly cheats on their spouse may be in danger of losing their salvation? Maybe God is thinking that if you cannot stay faithful and loyal to your spouse, then maybe you will not be able to stay faithful and loyal to Him for all of eternity once you enter into heaven.
Look at what happened to Satan and one third of all the angels. They could not stay faithful and loyal to the Lord for the long run, and as a result, they tried to rebel against Him and were eventually thrown right out of heaven!
The word “sodomite” refers to a man having sexual relations with another man, which is another word for describing the sin of homosexuality. According to Webster’s Dictionary, the word “licentiousness” refers to one who “disregards accepted rules and standards, one who is morally unrestrained, especially in sexual matters.”
There is no doubt that the above two verses are talking about nonbelievers. But is it also talking about Christians? I guess we will all find out once we cross over into heaven and we see who has made it and who has not. But I would not want to be taking any chances with the Lord by wallowing in any of the above sins on any type of regular and frequent basis.
5. Not Everyone Who Calls Jesus “Lord, Lord” Will Make it Into Heaven
This next powerful verse is coming direct from Jesus Himself. He specifically states that not everyone who calls Him “Lord, Lord” is going to make it into heaven, but only those who do the will of God the Father.
The key word in this verse is the word “will” – the will of God the Father. What is the will of God the Father? One of His definite “wills” is that we stay out of serious sin, especially some of the specific sins mentioned in the above two verses.
When Jesus is using the words of those calling Him “Lord, Lord” – is He referring to Christians or nonbelievers? I personally believe that He may be referring to Christians. How can you truly call Jesus “Lord, Lord” unless you have become saved and born again by accepting Him as your “Lord” and Savior.
If Jesus is specifically referring to Christians with this phrase, then this is another verse that is showing that a Christian could possibly lose their salvation. Once you have become saved, and then you go back and start to enter into some of these heavier sin areas – which would be going against the “will” of God the Father – then I believe you could be in danger of losing your own personal salvation with the Lord.
I believe this verse is also telling us that God will not be mocked! You cannot accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and then turn around and start to enter into some of these heavier sin areas – and then think you can get away with it and that God will just look the other way.
The sins of adultery and homosexuality are two very scary sins for any Christian to want to engage in with the way some of the above verses are worded. I would not want to be tempting my eternal fate with God the Father by engaging in these two sins, or any of the other sins mentioned in the above two verses.
Here is the verse:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21)
Notice that Jesus is specifically talking about people who have prophesied and cast out demons in His name. Is Jesus referring direct to Christians? I believe that He is, especially on the second act that these people had been doing – casting demons out of people in His name.
An unbeliever cannot cast demons out of someone because they do not have the legal authority to be able to do so. Demons are cast out of people by the power of the Holy Spirit.
You have to have the Holy Spirit living and operating on the inside of you before you can cast demons out of someone. Only born-again Christians have the Holy Spirit living and operating on the inside of them – unbelievers do not! As a result, unbelievers do not have the power of the Holy Spirit or the legal authority from God the Father to cast demons out of anyone, including themselves if they have been caught in their death grip.
Two Scripture verses will back this up. In Acts 19:13-16, several Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call on the name of Jesus to try and cast demons out of several people. When they tried to cast these demons out in the name of Jesus, one of the evil spirits replied back to him stating that they knew who Jesus and Paul were, but they did not know who he was.
Then the man who had the demon in him jumped on the Jewish exorcists, overpowered them and literally “prevailed” against them. The men then ran out of the house “naked and wounded.” In other words, the Jewish exorcists had no divine power and authority to be trying to take these demons on. And not only were they not able to cast the demons out, but the demons were allowed to physically attack them and were able to drive them right out of the house without a stitch of clothing left on them! And these men were Jewish men, not total unbelievers.
Here is the verse giving us this specific information:
“Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches … And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.” (Acts 19:13-16)
Notice in the first verse listed above that Jesus is not contesting that these people really were casting demons out of people in His name. I believe Jesus is directly acknowledging that these people really were casting demons out in His name. And if Jesus is acknowledging this fact – then these people have to be born-again Christians, because only born-again Christians have the power of the Holy Spirit operating on the inside of them to be able to cast demons out of anyone.
I have heard some scholars argue that the people Jesus is referring to in this verse were unbelievers, not saved Christians. These unbelievers were then casting demons out of people and prophesying in His name as a direct result of operating under some kind of demonic influence or possession. In other words, they were all doing this operating under the power of a demonic spirit rather than the power of the Holy Spirit. However, the second verse stated above is telling us that unbelievers cannot cast demons out of people, even if they are operating under some kind of demonic influence and power.
Another very powerful verse to help back up the revelation that demons are not going to be casting out other demons in a person is found in Mark 3:20-30. In this verse, the Scribes are accusing Jesus of casting demons out of people by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons.
Jesus then responds back stating that Satan is not going to be casting out himself, and that a kingdom will not be be able to stand if it becomes divided against itself. In other words, not even Satan or one of his demons are going to try and cast out other demons in a person, as they would just be defeating their own purposes in trying to do so.
If Satan or one of demons are not going to be casting demons out of anyone, and if unbelievers do not have the power and authority to be able to cast out demons – then the people Jesus is referring to in this first verse have to be born-again Christians, not unbelievers.
And then notice what Jesus says next – that He will tell them to depart from Him and that He never knew them because they “practice lawlessness.” The keys words as to why they may lose their salvation in Him is due to the fact that they were “practicing” lawlessness.
The word “practice” means someone who is deliberately, intentionally, and willfully breaking some of God’s basic laws and commandments on some kind of a regular basis. It is someone who is doing this on a regular and consistent basis, not someone who is just occasionally slipping up.
Again, I believe Jesus is giving us a major clue in this verse in that He is really talking about Christians, not unbelievers. And if He is, then this verse is more proof that a Christian can lose their salvation if they push the envelope too far and too long with the Lord, with no intentions of ever pulling out of their sinful behaviors, and no remorse for doing it in the first place.
6. A Sin Leading to Death
This next verse is very interesting. It talks about a sin that could lead to death and a sin that will not lead to death. I believe the word “death” could be referring to the deaths of our souls once we die and cross cover, which would mean going straight to hell when we die. Again, is this verse referring to Christians?
If it is, then it is definitely delineating between certain types of sins. It is implying that some sins are obviously worse than others. Some of these sins could cause us to lose our salvation and other types of sins will not. Here is the verse:
“There is a sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.” (1 John 5:16-17)
God will obviously be the final judge on what sins could lead to death and which ones will not. But again, as a Christian, I would not want to be tempting my eternal fate with God the Father by engaging in some of the heavier sins mentioned in the above verses, thinking that He will look the other way just because we got saved earlier on in our lives.
7. Fallen From Grace
The Bible specifically tells us that we are “saved by grace.” However, this next verse specifically says that we can “fall from grace.” If you put both of these phrases right next to one another, then I believe they could be telling us that a Christian could lose their salvation.
I believe the words “fallen from grace” means exactly what it is saying. If we have been “saved by grace” – then we can also “fall from that same saving grace.” This might be another powerful verse from the Lord showing us that we can lose our salvation with Him.
Notice also in the first part of this verse where it talks about becoming “estranged from Christ.” If you put these three words right next to the words “fallen from grace” – and they are all in the same verse – then once again I believe the implication may really be there that you can lose your salvation, and that another phrase to describe losing your salvation with the Lord is “falling from grace” – falling from the saving grace which you initially got saved in the first place!
Here is the verse:
“You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)
Put this verse together with all of the other ones mentioned above – and the Scriptural evidence may really be there that a Christian could possibly lose their salvation if they try and push the envelope to far with God the Father by falling into and engaging in some of the heavier type sins as described above.
8. Having Your Name “Blotted Out” From the Book of Life
I will leave with you with one very scary intense verse from the Bible. This verse is coming direct from Jesus Himself from the Book of Revelation.
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (Revelation 3:5)
The Book of Life is a Book that has every single saved and born-again believer recorded in it. Once you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, your name is then written and recorded in this Book.
But notice what Jesus says in reference to this specific Book. He specifically says that he who “overcomes” will not have his name “blotted out” from this Book. The word “blot” means “to rub or wipe out, to erase or get rid of.”
The fact that Jesus is telling us that our names can literally be blotted out from this Book is just more proof that we can possibly lose our salvation with Him. If your name could not be blotted out from this Book, then Jesus would have never made this specific statement in the first place. But since He did, I believe this is another powerful Scripture verse that is showing us that we can lose our salvation in Him.
Also notice the specific word that Jesus is using to tie in this possibility – the word “overcomes.” What is it that Jesus wants us to overcome? One of the things that He definitely wants us to overcome is the temptation to fall and enter into some of these heavier sin areas. The Bible tells us that we must “endure” temptation.
To endure a temptation means you do not give into it, you do not cross the line – but if by chance you do fall into a specific temptation, to immediately pull out of it as soon as you can. If you do not, and you do not overcome and pull out of this temptation within the time span that God is giving you to pull out of it, then your name could be blotted out from His Book of Life for all of eternity!
The other thing to pick up with the specific wording that Jesus is using in this verse is that once He blots out your name from His Book of Life – it will be for all of eternity. There will be no second chance to get back in once you have been officially erased from His Book, just like the first verse I listed at the beginning of this article is telling us.
There is no other indication in this verse, or any other verses in the Bible, that this blotting out of your name can be reversed or rescinded. The tone and straight forward way this verse is being worded is all showing us that not only can a person’s name be actually blotted out from this Book, but that once it is, it will be for all of eternity.
Again, if this was not an actual possibility, then Jesus would have never worded this verse the way He did. But the fact that He is specifically using the words of having your own personal name blotted out from His Book of Life is all showing us that this is a definite possibility if we have gone too far and wallowed too long in a heavier sin area.
Conclusion
You will each have to come to your own conclusions as to whether or not you feel a Christian can lose their salvation with the way all of the above verses are worded. I personally believe that all of the above verses mean exactly what they are saying.
If you put all of the above verses together and right next to one another like you would pieces to a jigsaw puzzle, then I believe God the Father is giving us major insight and revelation that a Christian can lose their salvation if he “falls away,” if he “falls from grace,” if he becomes “estranged from Christ,” if he gets involved in a “sin that leads to death,” if he goes against the “will” of God the Father, if he returns once again to the “pollutions of the world,” and if he “sins willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth” that is contained in both God and Jesus.
I personally believe that all of the above verses, and specifically some of the key phrases mentioned in these verses, are simply way too much Scriptural evidence all showing that it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation with the Lord.
God and His Word will not be mocked. He will not put up with some of His own falling into some of these heavier sin areas, and then think that He will turn a blind eye to their sins, while all the while condoning their sinful activities thinking that the Blood of Jesus will keep them covered till the day they die.
I am afraid some Christians, who are living in some of these heavier sin areas on a regular and frequent basis with no intentions of trying to pull out of them, are going to be in for a very big surprise once they die and cross over and have to meet the Lord for their own personal final judgment.
Again, it would be our strong recommendation that you go direct to God the Father in prayer and ask Him to show you what the real truth is on this matter. All of the above are just our thoughts and opinions on this very controversial issue. For the record, I hope that I am really wrong on my assessment on the above Scripture verses, as I would never want anyone to lose their salvation in the Lord.
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Michael Bradley
Bible Teaching and Bible Commentary,
Over 150 Free Bible LessonsScripture taken from New King James Version.
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Copyright © 2005-2012 by Michael Bradley.
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Also, none of what you mention keeps anyone out of Heaven… only one thing : rejecting Gods Gift of Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Post-conversion, sin wears and tears away at our rewards.. not our Salvation.
Your 1 John scriptures are misinterpreted. The Bible ‘reads’ lots of things it does is not actually ‘saying.’
These passages of scripture speak directly to the Christian :
1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
10 “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Lydia, We sin everyday in deed, thought and/or action.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Margo,
Well, Jesus dined with sinners, Margo dines with sinners and if you had read my second sentence (“Paul is NOT telling us NOT to seek out the “sinners” that have NOT heard the gospel yet.”) you would have guessed that I, too, probably dine with sinners. That is not the self-righteous point!
Yes Paul was the “chief of sinners” but he also said in Romans 6:1-2: “What shall we say, then? SHALL WE GO ON SINNING, so that grace may increase? BY NO MEANS! We are those who have died to sin; HOW CAN WE LIVE IN IT ANY LONGER?” (In addition to the 1John 3 and 5 verses I already mentioned previously – and John was a really gentle man.)
On the other hand, Paul tells us (I repeat myself) in 1 Cor. 5:9-11 YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A BROTHER OR SISTER… And the word “claims” DID NOT escape me.
The problem is that those “Claimers” are SURE that they are SAVED yet they are committing adultery, marrying and divorcing and remarrying, they worship Mammon and some even preach about Mammon on TV. As long as you give them, they will tell you that you can live as sinfully as you want and that it is covered by Jesus’ blood. Mammon is more appealing than talking about sin these days. In fact, we should do everything not to upset a potential Mammon-giver and if he is living in sin, we should just pat him on the head and say “It’s all taken care of by Jesus”. 50-60 yrs. ago, and before that, pastors talked about sin and its consequences. Today, nothing. That is why today OPEN sin pushed IN THE FACE of others is accepted in almost all churches. And that is why there are almost no morals anymore in the Christian world. There are only a small number that are “working out” their salvation “with trembling” (Philippians 2:12)
Wherever you turn, we are exhorted, EVEN BY JESUS, not to continue living in sin – in hundreds of verses, if not in even more. So, are you more knowledgeable than Jesus or something? If Jesus says that we should not continue our life of sin, than I guess you just don’t value his words and teachings much – or Him.
I am just sick and tired of people justifying their sin and telling others that it is OK to continue sinning, and by doing so, they trample all over Jesus’ precious blood.
I really apologize if I have offended you in any way.
Margo,
Sorry, I didn’t see the second part of your answer. With all that I have written, do I give you the impression in some way that I think I am without sin???????
Post-conversion sin has nothing to do with our rewards. That’s where the “works” that James talks about come in. If we work for God in any way and/or serve others in his name – the more we do, the larger the reward. It has nothing to do with post-conversion sin.
And yes, we sin everyday – but we should try to cut down on our sinning as much as possible. If we gossip, we should bite our tongue. If we are fornicating/watching porno/committing adultry – we should stop. If we are control freaks, we should get help to learn how to let go. If we think that taking something from our workplace that we need – because everybody else is doing it – we should stop because it is not ours to take. If we promise something and don’t keep the promise, we should either not promise anything anymore or start keeping our promises…and so on. We CAN and are ABLE to give up our pet sins – that is what is meant when they say we should grow in our walk with Christ. We should recognize our sin and deal with it.
I don’t live in your country, so the last sentence about Egypt is lost on me.
Again, I apologize for any offense.
Lydia~ You haven’t offended me.. but, my guess is that you should be more concerned with offending God. I am in no way trying to justify my sins… but, I am in reality and know that I still sin.. as do you. Has nothing to do with living in sin or any of that.. and everything to do with the fact that we are human-beings with a human nature. Our Salvation has nothing to do with what we do or don’t do. Its all about what God has done for us. Please don’t deny the Power in the Blood of Jesus Christ. When God saves us, we are saved! You seem to think satan is more powerful than God.. that he has some sin that trumps what Christ did for us on the Cross. Not so! You seem to be in denial where sin is concerned and seemingly are unaware as to how Salvation works. I can tell that you’re Assembly of God or Pentecostal.. perhaps, Oneness or Holiness? All of which, teach things that are not necessarily Biblical truths.
Personally, I was raised Assembly of God and then Southern Baptist. I’ve had to learn to read Gods Word for myself and allow the Holy Spirit to bring my unto knowledge and understanding…. throwing lots of what I was taught, out the window. Arminianism vs Calvinism… both are not completely correct. I follow neither doctrine.
I got exactly what you said.. and I have complete awareness of people, saved and unsaved alike.. sin daily… and I dine with and have fellowship with both. People know I’m a Christian.. so, if I choose to not have anything to do with them because of some sin they may have in their lives, they pick up on the hypocrisy in that act. And I am no hypocrite.
How many times have you written to the Benny Henns.. the Joel Osteens.. the John Hagees.. The Joyce Meyers.. the Paul Crouchs of the world? They’re the ones leading others in the wrong direction. They’re wolves in sheeps clothing.. hypocrites and heretics. And the list goes on and on. More of these types than not, I think. Its terrible!
No, dear.. its not about justifying any sins… and all about knowing what Jesus Christ did for us and who we are in Him.
Per Egypt = play on words. The Nile River in Egypt? Denial is not just a river in Egypt? I was conveying to you that I sincerely believe that you are in denial about your own Salvation and your own sins.
Please, never allow anyone to tell you that once you become a Christian you never sin.. thats a lie of the devil. You’re a Christian and you are only still very human.
Blessings.
Lydia~ I have no “pet-sins”… I am a human being who lives her life one day at a time. I don’t like sin.. but, I still do it. I confess them to the Lord.. and I know I am forgiven. I am not about walking on rice-paper. I am not religious.. just a poor sinner saved by Grace. Constantly being mindful of sin and/or sinning is living under the curse of the Law. I choose to live under Grace. Those of whom constantly concerned with sinning are in bondage. I choose FREEDOM IN CHRIST.
Margo,
1. How can I offend God if I stop swearing, stealing, or stop doing any other sin mentioned in the Bible?
2. Again I ask – Did I give you any reason to believe that I think that I don’t sin? Exactly the opposite is true!
3. I don’t think that satan is more powerful than God – I KNOW that he is only a created being and that God is the creator of that being.
4. As you have been wrong about everything else about me, I can tell you that I am not Assembly of God, Pentecostal. Oneness or Holiness. I am Messianic Jew (i.e. Jew that believes Jesus is the promised Messiah).
5. You say: “Please, never allow anyone to tell you that once you become a Christian you never sin.. thats a lie of the devil. You’re a Christian and you are only still very human.” Here, too, you are wrong about me. Did you read anything I wrote????
I hope you will read the following sentence and take it in:
I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER claimed that once you become a Christian you never sin – on the contrary, I said we should deal with our sin and not continue living KNOWINGLY in our sin.
6. I am in no denial about my sins – which are many and I try to overcome each one of them as I go along.
7. You, on the other hand, seem TO ME to be in denial that we should be doing something about our “post-conversion” sins.
So, you continue in your sins if that is what you think God wants, but I will continue to try to overcome my sins while pleading with God, on my face, to help me to overcome. I will really try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
Margo,
FREEDOM IN CHRIST does not mean that you are free to sin and that if you have not repented of that sin, everything is going to be OK.
FREEDOM IN CHRIST means that we are FREE TOO CHOOSE NOT TO SIN – since, before we came to Christ, we did not have that freedom, we just wallowed in sin without any hope – we were in satan’s grip. Jesus broke that grip now we have FREEDOM NOT TO SIN – we have FREEDOM TO CHOSE NOT TO SIN.
Lydia,
I want to think you for taking the Bible in whole and not just a few scriptures. I don’t like arguing about what the Word says because people take it out of context to try to justify what they’re doing is ok. From my study of Gods Word you are on the right track. Don’t let someone else try to convince for any other way. Always let God lead you in your actions and trust in him. Really enjoyed your comments. God Bless
I’d like to people to wath this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_zEGJoE_Q&feature=related . Please watch it all! Thank You.
Lydia~ Freedom in Christ is to know that we live our lives knowing who we are in Christ and not having to make sure all of our “I’s” are dotted and our “T’s” are crossed. Not being constantly burdened as to whether we sinned today and if we are prayed-through enough as to be pleasing in the eyes of God.
Per offending God : is to.. once we have experienced the second-birth, have the feeling of fear and guilt about sins we may commit. Always being so concerned that it makes us into ‘religious drone-puppets’ and miserable. We are constantly weighing out everything we say and do.. then, second-guessing ourselves… and ultimately, our own Salvation. Also, misinterpreting the Word of God.. making others realize the complicated-ness of Gods Divine Plan of Salvation… where in all actuality, its not complicated at all. Some people complicate a very simple plan.
As far as freedom of choice to either sin or not : we have always had that. Some people, even though they are lost, live by a strict moral compass. I’ve known a few people who lived clean lives.. never smoked, drank, cursed, fornicated, etc… but, were still going to split Hell wide-open.
Sin is not what sends a person to Hell. They send themselves to Hell by rejecting Jesus Christ.. which it the ultimate and unforgivable sin, I suppose (I stand corrected).
And yes, we are to wait on God. He makes all the changes in us that He deems necessary. Its not up to us to change.. but, be willing to be changed by God.
I have not been all that wrong about yourself. Messianic Jew.. wonderful. But, you still cannot shed the old Jewish Law, obviously. You believe in Christ at the Messiah.. but, your trust seems to be in yourself a great deal.
Just an observation.
My trust is fully in Christ.. only. I drop the ball way too much for me.. and most likely, for the Lord, as well.
Seems you are fessing-up the fact that you still sin, Lydia. But, in your first few posts, you displayed an air of piety, leading to the falsehood of one losing ones Salvation.. seem to be in so many words, a promoter of Lordship Salvation… as to say that we must make Jesus Christ Lord of our life in order to be saved. Where in as we don’t ‘make’ Jesus Christ anything.. as He is already Lord.. and when we are saved, He is our Lord.
Again, I am not religious.. don’t do religion… and do not live under the curse of the Law. I suppose that old habits are sometime difficult to break, yes?
Think about this : If Gods ‘Gift’ of Grace is a gift, we cannot work for it or in any way earn it. Its a Gift. So, are we really indebted to Christ? Do we owe Him anything for the Gift He has offered us and we have accepted? No.
When we do works and good deeds, as Christians… it is suppose to be out of gratitude for what God has done for us. Not out of debt.
We obey God out of our love for Him.. not because we need to maintain our Salvation.
Margo – your comment about Paul:
“As much as I love Paul and his writings, he was far from perfect per the flesh. IMO, per his idea of ostracizing anyone.. brethren or not.. from the fellowship within the church seems that it very well could do more harm than good.. and perhaps, make himself seem hypocritical in the process.”
(1) You never met Paul personally so your conclusions are conjecture.
(2) IMO. Sorry, our opinions do not count when it comes to the Word of God. We accept what it says and, if we don’t, we make sure we are correct in the true meaning through our pastors, brothers and sisters in Christ, commentaries, study, etc. If we hold to our errant opinion in the face of Bible truth, then we are set to compromise our beliefs or fall into sin ourself.
(3) It appears you question Paul’s authority to put the man out of the church. Paul had authority in the church given to him by God just like Moses and Joshua had authority over the Israelites in the desert. Hebrews 13:17 “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”
(3) Paul did not do things because he ‘thought it was the right thing to do’. He was obeying scripture.
(4) His instruction had two purposes which were both based on his love for: (a) the man – 5 “….that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” and (b) the church members – 6 “Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”
Paul’s purpose was to keep others from fornicating or sinning in the church. He already knew there was trouble, i.e. I Cor. 5:2 “And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned…” The man’s sin caused sin to spread in the hearts of the Corinthian church! They were lukewarm to it!
Compare this to present day Episcopalian church, for example:
‘Bishop Jefferts Schori stated “the spirit does seem to be saying to many within the Episcopal Church that gay and lesbian persons are God’s good creation, that an aspect of good creation is the possibility of lifelong, faithful partnership, and that such persons may indeed be good and healthy exemplars of gifted leadership within the Church, as baptized leaders and ordained ones.”’ (2010)
How many people have been led astray with this false doctrine (leaven)? It has split the church and is taking people away from God. No scripture in God’s Holy Bible allows gays and lesbians to be baptized leaders and ordained ones. They may come to church like any other sinner to hear the Word.
John 5:14
“Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”
Why would Jesus tell the man ‘sin no more’ if it is impossible not to sin? We sin because we choose to sin, plain and simple. It does the person no good to make excuses.
Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew Henry’s Commentary:
Answerable to this wilfulness of theirs, in gainsaying the truth, God gave them over to a wilfulness in the grossest sins, here called a reprobate mind—eis adokimon (noun), a mind void of all sense and judgment to discern things that differ, so that they could not distinguish their right hand from their left in spiritual things. See whither a course of sin leads, and into what a gulf it plunges the sinner at last; hither fleshly lusts have a direct tendency.
As far as winning sinners, we share the Word of God with them which is the Sword of the Spirit. If they are totally and completely turned off to God and Christianity, that is their choice. We are called to preach the Gospel to all.
Margo – your comment:
‘Frankly, I feel its best to be loving and embracingly accepting toward others no matter what…’
Our feelings are what get us to compromise the Word of God and I’m not sure what you mean by ‘no matter what’. God commands us through His Word and we are to obey what He says, not how we feel. You aren’t alone.
I agree that we should always love and embrace others but always be about our Father’s business which is soul-winning. We show our love to others by telling them about Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. Others we have to save through fear, i.e.
Jude 1:23
“And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.”
I hope this helps.
Margo,
1. “Sin is not what sends a person to Hell. They send themselves to Hell by rejecting Jesus Christ…which it the ultimate and unforgivable sin, I suppose (I stand corrected).”
You always contradict yourself. You say that people send themselves to hell and not their sin. In the next sentence you say that sin (unforgivable SIN) is what sends them to hell. By your own words you say SIN is what sends a person to hell.
Yes, rejecting Jesus is the unforgivable sin because you would have no mercy before His Father on the Judgment Day. You would have no blotting out of your sins.
But also, all KNOWN, unrepentant sin will send you to hell. As I said, be my guest if you are so sure of your views.
Jesus said that ONLY A FEW will get to heaven. So, who is it going to be? The one who KNOWS he is sinning and does nothing about it, or the one who recognizes his sin, repents, asks for forgiveness and his sin is blotted out so there is no record of his sin anymore, anywhere? If you don’t repent of your sin, it WILL be SHOWN to you on the Judgment Day – together with your unrepentant PRIDE. If you repent, it will be blotted out as if it never was. (Obviously, when I say “you” – I mean all of us and not you personally.)
I would say that the sin of PRIDE is also unforgivable sin. Look what it has done to Satan! He was thrown OUT of heaven for his SIN of pride. So, it IS S-I-N (UNREPENTANT sin) that will keep you out of heaven!!!
2. “It’s not up to us to change…but, be willing to be changed by God.”
And what if you’re NOT WILLING to change and want to hang on to your sin, and interpret the scripture to fit your sinful state – where does that leave you? In heaven or hell?
3. “…but, your trust seems to be in yourself a great deal.”
Obviously you have a problem of understanding what you are reading. I trust in myself as much as Paul, the disciples, the prophets or any other person in the Bible who did – or tried to do – God’s will. All of them felt unworthy – and how much more do I feel so – since I am so far below their level. I only trust that God will forgive me when I repent and that he will blot out my sin when I do so. Not in myself.
4. As for me being a Messianic Jew – I know EXACTLY what Jesus came to fulfill and what laws.
Mat. 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER, NOT THE LEAST STROKE OF A PEN, WILL BY ANY MEANS DISAPPEAR FROM THE LAW UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED.
So, to me it seems that the whole law stands until Jesus comes back. That’s what JESUS said – am I to contradict Him??? The law stands like a mirror to us, to show us when we are sinning, so that we can repent and ask for forgiveness. I don’t “trust in myself” but in the Word of God and what it is SHOWING me.
5. Mat. 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so YOU MUST BE CAREFUL TO DO EVERYTHING THEY TELL YOU. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Well, this for me is very plain. Jesus is telling even his DISCIPLES to do everything that the religious leaders of that time told them to do. And all they knew was the OT. Obeying God’s commandments, and repenting when we fall short, has nothing to do with my being Jewish. JESUS told us to OBEY – UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR.
6. Rom 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For THE MIND THAT IS SET ON THE FLESH IS HOSTILE TO GOD, for it DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW; indeed, it cannot. THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
I am not second-guessing myself – I have the Bible to prove me right OR wrong – and I don’t argue with God’s word. It says that if we DO NOT SUBMIT to God’s LAW, we are HOSTILE to God. Christians that do not repent of their sin (that do not submit to God’s Law) and move on, live in the flesh and are HOSTILE to God and CANNOT PLEASE HIM – Jesus or no Jesus.
Setting one’s mind on the Spirit, on the other hand, means you are willing to listen to the Spirit when he shines a light on your sin and are WILLING to repent – not fight God’s word and interpret it to fit your sin.
7. Ezekiel 3:20 Again, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS PERSON TURNS FROM THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND DOES EVIL…THEY WILL DIE. Since you did not warn them, THEY WILL DIE FOR THEIR SIN. THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS THAT PERSON DID WILL NOT BE REMEMBERED, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
We become “righteous” through Jesus, but if we turn from our righteousness, it’s as if we were never righteous – never new Jesus. God does not change – only people do. His Word was, is and will be forever.
And yes, I quote from the OT because JESUS quoted from the OT, too. When he was on this earth, NT didn’t even exist.
8. “Seems you are fessing-up the fact that you still sin, Lydia. But, in your first few posts, you displayed an air of piety, leading to the falsehood of one losing ones Salvation…”
Excuse me!!!! What air of piety? I always claimed that I was a sinner in need of repentance and forgiveness. Wow, you really don’t understand what you’re reading – so no wonder you don’t understand what’s written in the Bible. Or do you read the Bible at all?????
9. “So, are we really indebted to Christ? Do we owe Him anything for the Gift He has offered us and we have accepted? No.”
Excuse me, once again!!! YES, we are indebted to Christ. Christ DID NOT OFFER us any gift. HIS FATHER offered us the GIFT. Christ OBEYED his Father – as we should do, too. Christ came to give us an example as to how we should live – and it is LIVING IN OBEDIENCE to God’s law. Christ TAUGHT God’s LAW. Christ did not HAVE TO go to the cross; he did it out of love for his Father and for us. We are INDEBTED to his OBEDIENCE to his Father and should be on our knees and on our faces repenting and asking his forgiveness.
10. “When we do works and good deeds, as Christians… it is suppose to be out of gratitude for what God has done for us. Not out of debt.”
You seem to be confusing “works” and “sin”. We should be doing our “works” out of gratitude. Should we continue to sin KNOWINGLY also out of gratitude?
11. “We obey God out of our love for Him…not because we need to maintain our Salvation.”
And yet, it is written that we should WORK OUT our salvation WITH FEAR and TREMBLING.
I don’t know what Bible you’re reading.
Saved and James,
What.. is this tag-team Margo day or something? haha!
Lydia~ I have explained Gods Divine Plan of Eternal Salvation as the Holy Spirit has allowed me to see and know and understand it. I was stating facts. You entered into this deal by thinking you’re telling me whats-up.. “Margo, you cannot have your cake and eat it too…” like you’re educating a person who lives a life of sin or something. Thats blatant hypocrisy! You complicate the Gospel.. in which, the Bible tells us not to do. The Old Testament is the “school-master” that readies us and leads us unto Christ. The Law is written in our heads and hearts.. but, its time to grow up and move on to bigger and better things… having unwavering belief, faith and trust in Jesus Christ and stop worrying or being so concerned if or not we sinned today. Of course we did in one way or another.. but, life goes on.
You put off a vibe that tells us all that we could lose our salvation if we don’t live a certain way or if we don’t stop what we are doing at a given moment and drop to our knees and ask forgiveness for a dirty thought we may have had 5 minutes prior. I listen to the Holy Spirit.. and He convicts me of wrong-doing and I confess that. I am chastised regularly. But, I am never in fear of losing my Salvation. And I surely do not try to teach others that they should be either.
When you come off with all of this “you must forsake sin and live your life for Jesus” stuff.. you are sending a FALSE MESSAGE to others. Forsake sin? How does a human-being born with a sinful nature forsake sin? We can be mindful of it.. we can try as best we can (as so long we are doing it for all the right reasons).. but, its inevitable that we are going to sin.
There is no where in the Word of God that says stop sinning or agree to stop sinning.. or forsake sin in order to be saved. All of that is about our rewards once we stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ.. not our Salvation. Only Christians will stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema Seat).
It vastly paramount that we get it right.. especially if we share it with others. So, for the record… yes, in a round-about way, I can have my cake and eat it too. However, I am non-materialistic.. not into money.. all my needs are met.. have few to no ‘wants’… I love everyone and would like for them to have what I have. True Freedom if Jesus Christ as He has intended for me to have it. Guilt-free… free from the wages of sin and free from spiritual death. I try to store up rewards in Heaven.. certainly not here in this world.
You will not ever see me standing on a street corner holding s sign that says ‘God Hates Fags’.. or ‘Homosexuals are going to Hell if they don’t turn from their sin’…. because thats not love.. and its a lie of satan. I know several Christians who happen to be gay/lesbian and I surely don’t judge them. They really seem to love the Lord and attend church regularly. Personally, I never go to church…. and I’m just as Born-Again as they come. Jesus Christ made me that way
I use the KING JAMES version of the Bible. Most all others are corrupt.
Margo,
Funny how you never answer the pointed or specific questions I put before you. I guess they are uncomfortable for you and you don’t have an answer to them.
You don’t understand what you read and turn my words completely around. Are you for real?
It seems that you read your Bible the same way (if you do) – picking and choosing the verses that are suitable for pacifying your conscience when you know you’re doing something against God’s will – turning the words completely around to suit your situation.
Let’s agree to disagree and leave it be, because I just don’t want to go around in circles and don’t want to keep repeating myself.
Lydia~ Excuse me for being lazy and not erasing something and starting over. I always contradict myself? I should know to walk a thin line when dealing with the likes of you. Whats next, going to start ripping away at my grammar? haha!
Ok, Lydia… this is especially for you : People send themselves to Hell by rejecting Jesus Christ.. aka blaspheming the Holy Spirit.. the unpardonable sin.
I was somewhat tired yesterday but, rested well last night so, I’m much better today. If I ALWAYS contradict myself, you have the right to express that.. but, I do not.. so, we have words and they must have meaning, yes?
All KNOWN unrepentant sin will send you to Hell? That is grossly inaccurate. There is no “repenting for sins”… when we hear the Word, the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart.. putting forth effort to draw is nigh unto God. We either resist or we yield to the Spirit and believe on Jesus Christ through Faith.. and He saves us, making all the pertinent changes in so we may have His full Grace upon us.. Salvation and forgiveness of sins (past, present and future). Right at the moment we decide to yield to the Holy Spirit, we have repented aka had a change of mind toward God, sin and ourselves.. realizing that we are hopeless hell-deserving sinners in need of Salvation and a Savior.
That is Biblical repentance.. having a change of mind. Thats good once and for all time, Lydia. After that and throughout our lives as Born-Again Christians, we confess our sins to God. Something He already knows.. but, He wants to know that we acknowledge them, as well. Even though, we can think our confession of sins to Him as He knows our every thought.. and motive.
God, Himself.. repented many times in the Old Testament : Genesis, Exodus, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel.. etc. Was God repenting of His sins? No! God has no sins.. He does not sin. Respectfully, I can tell that you’ve really been listening close to your spiritual leaders. You see, they must believe certain things before they are allowed to lead, teach and/or preach. They go by a certain doctrine whether its true or false.. and if anyone is going to participate in leading others, they tell them what to believe and therefore, teach. It works the very same way in all denominations. One of the reasons that I do not belong to any congregation.. as unless I can find someone who really knows the Word of God accurately so, as it is intended.. I will stay at home and read/study the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to be my teacher. I know a few things about Messianic Judaism. Some of which may be intended for Jews but, not Gentiles. For instance, the Pentateuch/Torah. Many Messianics believe that Christ taught and re-affirmed the Torah but, I believe that He fulfilled it and it was nailed to the Cross.
***Jesus said that ONLY A FEW will get to heaven. So, who is it going to be? The one who KNOWS he is sinning and does nothing about it, or the one who recognizes his sin, repents, asks for forgiveness and his sin is blotted out so there is no record of his sin anymore, anywhere? If you don’t repent of your sin, it WILL be SHOWN to you on the Judgment Day – together with your unrepentant PRIDE. If you repent, it will be blotted out as if it never was. (Obviously, when I say “you” – I mean all of us and not you personally.)
I would say that the sin of PRIDE is also unforgivable sin. Look what it has done to Satan! He was thrown OUT of heaven for his SIN of pride. So, it IS S-I-N (UNREPENTANT sin) that will keep you out of heaven!!!***
Seems you are trying to utilize your own human intellect in lieu of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you to truth and understanding of the Word of God. To answer your questions, I will try to be orderly : Only a few will be in Heaven.. so true! But, the examples you gave are way off. You must not read or else, grasp what I try to convey here of any importance. You did grasp my (1 time) contradiction faux-pas. Kudos! Heres something of value : Christ is not speaking of those of whom are Born-Again and commit sins. He is speaking about rejectors of Christ, so-called “Christians” who think/believe Salvation is Christ + them.. Heretics.. wolves in sheeps clothing aka prosperity preachers.. televangelists who prey on Gods people and potential people for their own selfish, greedy monetary gain.. and the list goes on. And these are but a few who think they’re going to Heaven.. not unbelievers, atheists, satanists. And no, the sin of pride is forgiven. There is only one unforgivable sin. We’ve been over that
Thats why its important what we believe. You are so majorly concerned with sin.. which is important, I’m not down-playing sin.. but, I put my heart, mind and emphasis on Jesus Christ. What you’re saying in the above paragraph is vastly inaccurate. You are (in so many words) denying the power in the Blood of Christ. What you perhaps, do not understand.. is that when Jesus Christ saves us, His Righteousness is imputed to us. His body is a veil over us (individually speaking).. so, when God the Father looks at us, He is looking through Jesus Christ. Kind of like a cheese-cloth over a camera lens.. makes the subject appear flawless… same thing. We have the righteousness of Christ. So, does Christ sin? No. Neither do we in the eyes of God. In other words, we stay cleansed of all unrighteousness that we know in our own human hearts that we may experience. We know that we still sin.. and the Holy Spirit convicts us gently. We must be mindful of our transgressions and be aware.. but, move on and not dwell upon them.. knowing who we are in Christ.
There will be a judgment of Christians and a judgment for unbelievers. When the Rapture occurs, the graves of all Christians will open and they will ascend toward the clouds.. and the Christians who are alive will follow.. and meet Christ in the air. At that time, the Judgment Seat of Christ will occur and all the deeds of all Christians will be tried by fire. Any deed that was not in Christ will turn to ash.. and what remains is the determining factor upon our rewards. This judgment is not to determine where a person is spending eternity.. as its a given, the fact that if a person goes up in the Rapture whether dead or alive, they’re saved.
The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers.. and that is the last judgment that occurs after the Millennial-Reign.. after satan has been released for a season, gathered up his army and gets his butt and their butts kicked by Gods people.. then, he is tossed back into the pit, along with the beast and false-prophet and it is sealed. Then, comes the Great White Throne Judgment.. where whoevers name is not found in the Book of Life (which will be all of them) will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
The Book of Life is a birth record of everyone who was, is or will ever be born. If a person turns to Christ and is saved, his / her name remains in the Book of Life.. and will be recorded into the Lamb’s Book of Life.. never to be blotted out. But, if a person rejects Christ and dies in that unbelieving lost state, his / her name is blotted out of the Book of Life.. spoken of in Rev 20. There are many Books. God keeps perfect records.
I may have gotten off-course… but, perhaps it needed to be stated. Bottom line : if a person is saved, that person can never lose their Salvation. God is not an “Indian-Giver”… and our Salvation is not conditional nor is it on loan to us. All of that is pure, unadulterated heresy.
Lydia~ I absolutely mean no disrespect toward you. However, if you do not fully understand Gods Divine Plan of Salvation, much of what you state is moot. We can quote scripture until Jesus comes but, if we don’t know the true intention and meaning of them, it does no one any good.
*****2. “It’s not up to us to change…but, be willing to be changed by God.”
And what if you’re NOT WILLING to change and want to hang on to your sin, and interpret the scripture to fit your sinful state – where does that leave you? In heaven or hell?**** Since God does the saving.. and made me Righteous, Justified, Regenerated, a family member, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, partaker in His Inheritance, name in the Lambs Book of Life.. and all sealed by the Holy Spirit…. THAT LEAVE ME CLEAN AND PURE AS DRIVEN SNOW! Heaven-bound, sister! And if you cannot or plainly will not believe that truth, where does that leave you.. HEAVEN OR HELL??? Think about this : I did nothing to get saved.. just believe on Christ. Grace is a gift, yes? Do we work for a Gift? If someone gives you a gift, are there strings attached? If someone offers you a gift and you accept it, are there conditions? Do you owe the person because they gave you a gift? No.. no.. no.. and no!
Try this : if we know and understand the list of things.. the changes God makes in us instantaneously at the moment of Salvation (in which, we did nothing for).. in order for us to lose our Salvation, He would have to reverse everything He did in us. Make us unrighteous.. make us un-justified.. make us un-regenerated.. He would have to un-adopt us, kicking us out of His family.. write us out of His Inheritance… evict the Holy Spirit.. and erace our name from the Lambs Book of Life….. all after He broke the Seal of the Holy Spirit.. in order to condemn us to Hell.
None of which, would ever happen.
Funny, how I thought you were AG, Pentacostal ..etc. Messianic Jews believe in continuing with all the religious ritualistic things (other than Communion, in which I participate).. and still hold tightly onto the Torah. Well, Lydia if we’ve broken one Commandment, we’ve broken them all. Do you partake of pork? God says its neither common nor unclean.. slay and eat!
Have you read everything that used to be an ‘abomination?’ Why do people who just do not ‘get it’ like to channel in on sexual-sin? I think its because of ENVY. Well, I’m single and celibate. Hence, my attitude.. hahaha!
Ezekiel = Old Testament. Its common knowledge that everyone is going to die. The Bible speaks intermittently about death.. both, physical and spiritual. Adams transgressions is the root-cause of that.
****I am not second-guessing myself – I have the Bible to prove me right OR wrong – and I don’t argue with God’s word. It says that if we DO NOT SUBMIT to God’s LAW, we are HOSTILE to God. Christians that do not repent of their sin (that do not submit to God’s Law) and move on, live in the flesh and are HOSTILE to God and CANNOT PLEASE HIM – Jesus or no Jesus.
Setting one’s mind on the Spirit, on the other hand, means you are willing to listen to the Spirit when he shines a light on your sin and are WILLING to repent – not fight God’s word and interpret it to fit your sin.****
No, you just read the words that are printed on the pages and that suffices for you, yes? No interpretation needed, right? Wrong! I simply cannot stress enough.. the POWER IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. While you are plagued with the thoughts of whether you’ve sinned in the past 10 minutes or not. You live in constant fear, so it seems… and I really hate that for you. Wheres the Blessed Assurance? I’ll tell you where you think it is : ‘as longs as you perform, you have that assurance’.. but, theres nothing “Blessed” about that kind of assurance.. because thats nothing more than, ‘self-assurance’.. and you’ve already admitted to that. Self-assurance = no-assurance = false-hope.
Works-Salvation. You’re afraid you’re going to fall from Grace over the least little issue.. and it is all rooted in your vast misinterpretation of the Word of God.
You (and others) accuse me of trying to make the Bible conform to myself.. in which, I have not done… whereas, you take what the Bible reads and roll with it.. in lieu of properly interpreting and therefore, knowing what it is actually saying. Some passages we can do that.. while others need proper interpretation. And I’m not saying study the Greek and Hebrew (Aramaic?) scriptures.. but, cross-referencing scripture with scripture.. working the vast ‘equation of words’ as it were.. to come to a conclusive Biblical truth and understanding. Otherwise, sometimes the Word of God does indeed appear on the surface as contradictory in places. Whereas, we know that it is not.. but, it would seem that way to the person utilizing their own human-intellect.. in which, as we know.. that takes a person only just so far and they will miss some of the most vital elements of the Word. As God and the things of His far surpass all human-intellect and reasoning. Thats why I say it’s paramount to put forth vast effort in studying and praying while doing so as to get proper sound knowledge and understanding.
And its so simple. I explain it as such… while others seems to take great delight in complicating it. And when would-be Christians hear the wrong message, they know and realize its an impossible task and so, why try? Everybody in the world knows we are only human.. and humans have a sinful nature. And if they just plainly read the words on the pages of the Bible.. many realize is not possible to “live up to” what God expects of us…. as it is being solidified by those of whom misinterpret the scriptures. Its the work of satan.. and he is good at what he does. A networking devil, indeed!
As I’ve said… the burden of our Eternal Salvation is entirely on God.. and not ourselves. I believe it.. I live it. Lydia, you will agree with that statement.. but, then you turn around and stress many, many things that is contradictory to that truth. THAT is what discourages many would-be Christians.. as well as, many Christians of whom aren’t so well-grounded as of yet. They start questioning their own Salvation… which is dirty-pool!
Hope this helps.
I believe a Christian can lose their salvation. For example: Romans 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.
God has given us free will to choose. Jesus first teaching was Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.
We are all sinners, it is only by God’s grace and mercy we are saved. There are several verses in the Holy Bible that tells us to pray because we are dependent on God for every good; without him you can do nothing.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If you believe in Jesus Christ, you should try your best to do what He teaches which is to repent and believe the gospel. If you believe, you will want to following His teachings.
James~ I don’t think I would’ve had to ever meet Paul to know that he was just a man.. a human-being who was a sinner saved by Grace. I also know exactly the damages of being ostracized. The Jehovah’s Witnesses use (abuse?)this very thing to manipulate their members. So, conjecture.. its not.
***(2) IMO. Sorry, our opinions do not count when it comes to the Word of God. We accept what it says and, if we don’t, we make sure we are correct in the true meaning through our pastors, brothers and sisters in Christ, commentaries, study, etc. If we hold to our errant opinion in the face of Bible truth, then we are set to compromise our beliefs or fall into sin ourself.***
Perhaps, not… but, I can still form them and express them. Actually, the scripture in question may very well be more for the protection of the congregation than the one who is in sin? All I know is that Paul called out Peter in front of everyone about being a hypocrite.. dining with the Gentiles (which was an abomination unto the Jews).. and when his Jew buddies walked onto the scene.. he causally slipped away from those Gentiles and unto his Jew buddies as though nothing was wrong.. but, Paul saw through all of that and said something to him about it. Frankly, I will dine with whomever I please. I’m not better than anyone else.. and one never knows when they could help someone else. It may be through something seemingly miniscule that is said.. who knows? If you live by this practice that Paul says we should do.. have at it. Jesus kept company with the under-dogs and a out-casts of society. Fall into sin, ourselves? Are you forgetting that we are indeed, sinners (saved by Grace)??? We are human and we sin.. end of story.
Please tell us about Paul in Romans 7
Margo,
I said I didn’t want to repeat myself again and go sparring with you in circles because we obviously do not agree.
Only one more thing I want to say is you have no idea who and what Messianic Jews are, what they do, how they believe or worship, what they eat, etc. (re pork – there are non-Jewish Christians that are not eating pork also, but that is not the point). There are Messianic congregations and then there are Messianic congregations – as in any other denomination. And I would appreciate it if you would not make fun of them – especially since you obviously you don’t go to church – and since you never saw inside of any Messianic congregation.
I just realized – all your comments – it’s all about you actually. Well, go for it.
Gediminas~ Thank you for sharing this video. Its a tough pill for some to swallow.. but, its what I’ve been conveying all along! Hopefully people will wake up and shun their religion and get into some Biblical Truth as it is written and intended.
God Bless!
Lydia~ You have no problem getting KATTY with me. And you’re most sadly mistaken.. as I know enough about Messianic Judaism and know what I am talking about. I have a close friend who attends a Messianic Jewish congregation.. so, you’re mistaken about me. If a person chooses not to eat pork, its their business. My point is the reason(s) they don’t partake. They surely cannot say its common or unclean.. as God says otherwise.
I’m am not making fun of anyone. Do you ever leave your own home? You seem easily offended. You misconstrue what I convey just as you do the Word of God. Sadly.
Have you checked out Gediminas video? I invite you to do so.
All of my comments are ALL ABOUT JESUS CHRIST… not myself.. unlike yourself. How in this world you came up with that hair-brain conclusion is beyond me. Like I said.. satan is a networking devil.
Take care.. and Shalom.
(James 3:1)”Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.”
In RT Kendall’s book “The Power of Humility”, He talks about how true Wisdom is found only through the Holy Spirit. The moment one takes pride in what they know and not what the Holy Spirit is currently telling them, the Holy Spirit leaves their consciousness, and takes Wisdom with it. A measure of wisdom may be confused with the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit, as every believer and non believer is granted this through Common Grace, but this measure is not Holy.
Before you post something for everyone to see, consider whether its coming to prove that your opinion is correct, or if it God sent.
Lydia~
***Funny how you never answer the pointed or specific questions I put before you. I guess they are uncomfortable for you and you don’t have an answer to them.
You don’t understand what you read and turn my words completely around. Are you for real?
It seems that you read your Bible the same way (if you do) – picking and choosing the verses that are suitable for pacifying your conscience when you know you’re doing something against God’s will – turning the words completely around to suit your situation.
Let’s agree to disagree and leave it be, because I just don’t want to go around in circles and don’t want to keep repeating myself.***
You know that a little yeast is good for the soul
I will be happy to address any question you may have for me.. but, sometimes, I become a little overwhelmed at being bombarded with much of what we have already gone over.
I understand what I read. Maybe your communication skills are lacking? Ever heard of the ‘benefit of doubt?’ How long have you known Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior? Just curious.. as I can tell that you are full of the OLD LAW.. which, was fulfilled by Jesus Christ and nailed to the Cross. We must live ENTIRELY AND TOTALLY UNDER GRACE… and not by the Law. Would you like to be judged by the Law? Because if you do, you’ve already failed!
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is THE LAW.”
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of THE LAW, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of THE LAW: for by the works of THE LAW shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of THE LAW are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of THE LAW to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by THE LAW in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And THE LAW is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Lydia, I don’t turn your words around. I read what you type. Please don’t spin your spiritual malnourishment trying to make it my issue. I’m not in competition with you or anyone else.. just would like for you to grasp what I convey to you.
Nor do I read my Bible (and yes, I read it.. study it too!!!) in such a manner that you’ve explained. I know how to read/study Gods Word. My conscience doesn’t need pacifying. My Spirit sometimes needs settling.. especially when dealing with the lost.
Lets agree to disagree.. hahaha! Well, somebodies soul may be on the line… and my guess is.. its not mine.
Good Luck with that.
Take Care.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_zEGJoE_Q&feature=related
Margo, I’ve known Jesus for 40 years and he carried me through some really rough times, but when I sinned, I repented and asked for his forgiveness when that sin was buried. And when some sin was hard to get rid of, I asked for his help and he walked me through until I buried that specific sin. I did not wallow in that sin and say “Jesus paid the price so I can just enjoy my sin”.
And yes, I did feel the burden of sin, but when I buried the sin – WITH HIS HELP – and received the forgiveness of Jesus, THAT was sweet and light.
Anyway, I apologize once again for loosing it in my comments. And since we don’t seem to agree on the subject, I respectfully say Shalom.
Margo -
First of all, what is the purpose for the comment? :
“What.. is this tag-team Margo day or something? haha!” I’m not in a tag-team or against you. The purpose of these discussions is to find the Truth in God’s Word. Not criticize one another. God is always Truth and therefore His Word is always Truth. Our goal as Christians is not to belittle but encourage one another as we seek the Truth.
People are ostracized for a number of reasons and many have nothing to do with God or the Bible. I personally don’t know the details of the doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses but if their teachings conflict with those in the Bible, then it is a false doctrine, plain and simple. And, there are plenty of churches within denominations led by unsaved people who treat people badly.
I was referring to how the Lord runs His Church AND lest you think it was only Paul, did you forget that Jesus ‘cast out’ people from the church also?
Matthew 21:12
12 “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
Jesus ‘cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple’, overthrew tables and seats and Paul ‘cast out’ a man for fornicating with his father’s wife? Hmmm.
If we believe the Bible is innerrant then what is recorded about Paul’s action with the Corinthian church is what the Lord instructed Him to do. Paul’s correction of Peter is also written because the Lord wanted it recorded for the benefit of His church.
II Timothy 3:16
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
As for your other comment:
‘Jesus kept company with the under-dogs and a out-casts of society.’
Yes, He certainly did AND Jesus kept company with other classes of society. He ate at Pharisee’s houses, tax-collector’s houses, was around businessmen (fishermen), church leaders as well as the poor, lame and blind. Jesus came for all people.
Matthew 21:12
“And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.”
Luke 7:36
“And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to meat.”
Luke 14:1
“And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.”
John 3:1
“Now there came a man of the Pharisees whose name was Nicodemus, a member of the council.”
Well, it has taken me a few years to reach this conclusion and be sure of it, but I do not think anyone can lose their salvation. They can choose to leave Jesus and give up their salvation however as has been previously stated so well by Margo.
A relative recently asked me about my faith. And I was so glad I had been thinking about salvation so much and could talk with him intelligently. But what made me happier than that was that he could see Jesus in my life, and so that is why the question came up. And that is the deal with salvation. We will still sin ofcourse, but we should be morphing over time into people who are more loving, and have a greater curiosity about God over time.
Thanks so much everyone for all your comments. Great to see people working through their faith, even if it gets a little heated sometimes. May Jesus help each of us to grow in understanding of Him.
Doesn’t the Parable of the Talents give insight as to whether a Christian can lose their salvation?
Matthew 25:14-30
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”
(“called his own servants”. Aren’t his and servants symbolic of the Lord and saved people, respectively? Doesn’t the reference ‘servants’ indicate they were part of his kingdom and therefore saved?)
15 “And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.”
(See reference to “his several ability” meaning either every man’s ‘ability’ or the Lord’s ‘ability’. I believe the latter because in John 15:5, the Lord states “… without Me ye can do nothing.” In either case, it is an ability the men now have possession of. From the Greek – 1411 dýnamis (from 1410 /dýnamai, “able, having ability”) properly, “ability to perform” (L-N); for the believer, power to achieve by applying the Lord’s inherent abilities. “Power through God’s ability” (1411 /dýnamis) is needed in every scene of life to really grow in sanctification and prepare for heaven (glorification). 1411 (dýnamis) is a very important term, used 120 times in the NT.)
16 “Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.”
(Intentional act by the servant. No intention of working for his lord with what he was given. He would still be known and recognized by others as his lord’s servant. If fact, while the lord was away, the servants lack of work was not reported to the lord by the other servants. He was still in the employ of his lord during this time.)
19 “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
(The first two servants increased what their lord gave them and produced tangible evidence they increased what their lord gave them.)
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:”
(By his own words, the servant acknowledged his lord as a hard man and knew what his lord expected while in his employ.)
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
(Gave back to his lord what he was given. Notice, he doesn’t say he was going to quit or leave his lord.)
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
The last verse gives us the servants end.