Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation, no matter how many bad things you may end up doing in this life.

The Bible says that we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with the Lord and that nothing can break this seal, no matter how many bad and evil sins a person may commit after getting saved.

Others believe that God will not be mocked, and that you can lose your salvation if you get into some of the heavier and more evil types of sins.

I believe there are several verses in Scripture that really do answer this question, with one verse in particular. After studying these verses very carefully, it is my own personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved.

However, I do believe that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen.

I believe the seal we have with the Holy Spirit is a very strong and powerful seal, but that this seal can be broken if this person with their own free will has chosen to live this life on the darker side.

I will go ahead and give you the main verses from Scripture that deal with this possibility.

You will each have to judge and discern for yourself as to whether or not you feel these verses are implying that a Christian can lose their salvation.

For those of you who are really wanting an answer on this issue, I would highly recommend that you study these verses very carefully, and then ask God the Father, through the Holy Spirit, to give you His direct answer on this issue due to the extreme importance of it.

What follows is just our own personal opinion on this issue.

You will each have to get your own answer from the Lord on this issue since there is such divided opinion in the Body right now on this question.

1. A Falling Away

In my opinion, this first verse hits the nail right on the head. Here is the verse, and then I will point out several key phrases showing that it might be possible for a Christian to lose their salvation with the Lord.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which brings in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8)

First, notice the specific wording being used to describe what I believe is a saved and born again Christian:

  • Those who were once enlightened
  • Have tasted the heavenly gift
  • Become partakers of the Holy Spirit
  • Have tasted the good Word of God

You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you are saved and born again. Only Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation with the Lord.

Nonbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of them. You can only be a partaker of the Holy Spirit if you already have Him living on the inside of you.

Only a Christian can truly “taste the good Word of God.” Unless you have the Holy Spirit living on the inside you, you can never fully understand the Bible because all of the Bible was really written by God the Father through the Holy Spirit.

Much of the Bible has to be spiritually discerned and this is done by and through the Holy Spirit. It is the job of Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to guide us into all truth.

As a result of the Holy Spirit helping you to understand the Bible when you are reading it, you then start to become “enlightened” as the above verse states.

You cannot become truly “enlightened” unless you already have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you, and He is working with you to help you understand the spiritual truths that are in the Bible.

Put it all together – you cannot be truly enlightened, be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have the ability to “taste” the Word of God and the powers of the age to come unless you are a born-again Christian. I believe these specific words being used are showing that this verse is specifically talking about Christians.

And then watch what it says next: “For it is impossible … if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance …”

I think the key words in these phrases are “if they fall away.”

What is considered a “falling away?”

Obviously God the Father will be the final judge on what is considered a falling away from Him.

A good example might be someone who turns completely to the dark side and decides he wants to worship Satan direct as a result of the wealth and power that Satan may be able to give him while he is still living down here on this earth.

There have been documented cases of priests and ministers who have literally “sold out” to the devil in exchange for more of the material and lustful pleasures of this life.

They have literally become true Satan worshipers. I personally think something like this would qualify as a “falling away” – a deliberate turning away from God to serve His adversary, the Devil.

Other extreme examples would be Christians who have decided to join and live in some type of organized crime, who get into killing and murdering others for their own gain and profit, men who become rapists or serial killers, etc.

As you will see in some of the other verses listed below, God will not be mocked.

I believe that some of these heavier types of sins can cause a Christian to lose their salvation if they do not get these heavier types of sins confessed and forgiven with the Lord before they die and cross over.

Notice the above verse also says that:

“For it is impossible … to renew them again to repentance” if they fall away into the more heavier types of sins. The key word is “impossible” – meaning that God is not going to allow them to come back in after they have probably passed what may be considered some kind of “point of no return” with Him. The Bible tells us that the Spirit of God will not strive with a man forever.

Put all of the above together – and I think that the above verse is telling us that it is definitely possible for a Christian to lose their salvation if the “falling away” is considered to be serious enough and extreme enough in the eyes of God.

2. Sinning Willfully After Receiving the Knowledge of the Truth

This next verse is another real scary verse. The above verse talks about a “falling away” that could cause you to lose your salvation.

This next verse goes another step further and specifically talks about “sinning willfully” after we have already received the knowledge of the truth from God. Here it is:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Notice the first part of this verse says that if we “sin willfully” after having already received the knowledge of the truth. Again, I believe this wording could be implying that we are talking about Christians.

The second part of this verse seems to confirm that possibility when it talks about trampling Jesus underfoot and insulting the Spirit of grace, which is the Holy Spirit Himself.

Then notice it says that “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” in direct reference to the statement about sinning willfully after having already received the knowledge of the truth.

I believe the words “no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” is implying a definite loss of salvation if someone has pushed the envelope too far with God the Father.

3. Becoming Entangled Again in the Pollutions of the World

Here is another verse that matches up with the verse mentioned above. It talks about, after having already received the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the dangers of returning back again to the “pollutions of the world” from which we have just come out of. Here it is:

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20)

Again, I believe this verse is specifically talking about Christians when it talks about escaping the pollutions of this world “through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

You cannot have true knowledge about Jesus unless you have become saved and born again by accepting Him as your personal Lord and Savior.

Notice this verse specifically states that it would be much worse for you to have become saved and then turn back to your old sinful ways into the pollutions of this world than to never have become saved in the first place.

The key phrase in this verse is “the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.”

The word “beginning” is referring back to when we were not saved. If you are not saved, you cannot make it into heaven. What could be worse than never being saved in the first place.

However, this verse is going one step further and it is literally telling us that it would be worse for us, after initially getting saved, if we once more return back to the sins that we were operating in before we got saved.

If that is worse than never getting saved in the first place, then I believe this verse is another one telling us that it is possible to lose your salvation after initially getting saved.

4. 22 Specific Sins That Could Keep You Out of Heaven

If some of the above verses are possibly implying that you can lose your salvation – then what are some of the specific sins that could cause you to lose your salvation? These next two verses will give you some of those specific sins.

Are these next two verses talking about Christians or nonbelievers? If you match these two verses up with the ones listed above, then I believe that some of these sins, if being committed by Christians on a regular and frequent basis, could get them into major trouble with the Lord and possibly be endangering their salvation with Him. Here they are:

  • Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9)
  • Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19)

Notice the sin of adultery is specifically mentioned in both verses. Does this mean any Christian who regularly cheats on their spouse may be in danger of losing their salvation?

Maybe God is thinking that if you cannot stay faithful and loyal to your spouse, then maybe you will not be able to stay faithful and loyal to Him for all of eternity once you enter into heaven.

Look at what happened to Satan and one third of all the angels. They could not stay faithful and loyal to the Lord for the long run, and as a result, they tried to rebel against Him and were eventually thrown right out of heaven!

The word “sodomite” refers to a man having sexual relations with another man, which is another word for describing the sin of homosexuality.

According to Webster’s Dictionary, the word “licentiousness” refers to one who “disregards accepted rules and standards, one who is morally unrestrained, especially in sexual matters.”

There is no doubt that the above two verses are talking about nonbelievers. But is it also talking about Christians?

I guess we will all find out once we cross over into heaven and we see who has made it and who has not. But I would not want to be taking any chances with the Lord by wallowing in any of the above sins on any type of regular and frequent basis.

5. Not Everyone Who Calls Jesus “Lord, Lord” Will Make it Into Heaven

This next powerful verse is coming direct from Jesus Himself. He specifically states that not everyone who calls Him “Lord, Lord” is going to make it into heaven, but only those who do the will of God the Father.

The key word in this verse is the word “will” – the will of God the Father. What is the will of God the Father?

One of His definite “wills” is that we stay out of serious sin, especially some of the specific sins mentioned in the above two verses.

When Jesus is using the words of those calling Him “Lord, Lord” – is He referring to Christians or nonbelievers?

I personally believe that He may be referring to Christians. How can you truly call Jesus “Lord, Lord” unless you have become saved and born again by accepting Him as your “Lord” and Savior.

If Jesus is specifically referring to Christians with this phrase, then this is another verse that is showing that a Christian could possibly lose their salvation.

Once you have become saved, and then you go back and start to enter into some of these heavier sin areas – which would be going against the “will” of God the Father – then I believe you could be in danger of losing your own personal salvation with the Lord.

I believe this verse is also telling us that God will not be mocked! You cannot accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and then turn around and start to enter into some of these heavier sin areas – and then think you can get away with it and that God will just look the other way.

The sins of adultery and homosexuality are two very scary sins for any Christian to want to engage in with the way some of the above verses are worded.

I would not want to be tempting my eternal fate with God the Father by engaging in these two sins, or any of the other sins mentioned in the above two verses.

Here is the verse:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21)

Notice that Jesus is specifically talking about people who have prophesied and cast out demons in His name. Is Jesus referring direct to Christians?

I believe that He is, especially on the second act that these people had been doing – casting demons out of people in His name.

An unbeliever cannot cast demons out of someone because they do not have the legal authority to be able to do so. Demons are cast out of people by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You have to have the Holy Spirit living and operating on the inside of you before you can cast demons out of someone.

Only born-again Christians have the Holy Spirit living and operating on the inside of them – unbelievers do not! As a result, unbelievers do not have the power of the Holy Spirit or the legal authority from God the Father to cast demons out of anyone, including themselves if they have been caught in their death grip.

Two Scripture verses will back this up. In Acts 19:13-16, several Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call on the name of Jesus to try and cast demons out of several people. When they tried to cast these demons out in the name of Jesus, one of the evil spirits replied back to him stating that they knew who Jesus and Paul were, but they did not know who he was.

Then the man who had the demon in him jumped on the Jewish exorcists, overpowered them and literally “prevailed” against them. The men then ran out of the house “naked and wounded.” In other words, the Jewish exorcists had no divine power and authority to be trying to take these demons on.

And not only were they not able to cast the demons out, but the demons were allowed to physically attack them and were able to drive them right out of the house without a stitch of clothing left on them! And these men were Jewish men, not total unbelievers.

Here is the verse giving us this specific information:

“Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches … And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.” (Acts 19:13-16)

Notice in the first verse listed above that Jesus is not contesting that these people really were casting demons out of people in His name. I believe Jesus is directly acknowledging that these people really were casting demons out in His name.

And if Jesus is acknowledging this fact – then these people have to be born-again Christians, because only born-again Christians have the power of the Holy Spirit operating on the inside of them to be able to cast demons out of anyone.

I have heard some scholars argue that the people Jesus is referring to in this verse were unbelievers, not saved Christians. These unbelievers were then casting demons out of people and prophesying in His name as a direct result of operating under some kind of demonic influence or possession.

In other words, they were all doing this operating under the power of a demonic spirit rather than the power of the Holy Spirit. However, the second verse stated above is telling us that unbelievers cannot cast demons out of people, even if they are operating under some kind of demonic influence and power.

Another very powerful verse to help back up the revelation that demons are not going to be casting out other demons in a person is found in Mark 3:20-30. In this verse, the Scribes are accusing Jesus of casting demons out of people by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons.

Jesus then responds back stating that Satan is not going to be casting out himself, and that a kingdom will not be be able to stand if it becomes divided against itself. In other words, not even Satan or one of his demons are going to try and cast out other demons in a person, as they would just be defeating their own purposes in trying to do so.

If Satan or one of demons are not going to be casting demons out of anyone, and if unbelievers do not have the power and authority to be able to cast out demons – then the people Jesus is referring to in this first verse have to be born-again Christians, not unbelievers.

And then notice what Jesus says next – that He will tell them to depart from Him and that He never knew them because they “practice lawlessness.” The keys words as to why they may lose their salvation in Him is due to the fact that they were “practicing” lawlessness.

The word “practice” means someone who is deliberately, intentionally, and willfully breaking some of God’s basic laws and commandments on some kind of a regular basis. It is someone who is doing this on a regular and consistent basis, not someone who is just occasionally slipping up.

Again, I believe Jesus is giving us a major clue in this verse in that He is really talking about Christians, not unbelievers.

And if He is, then this verse is more proof that a Christian can lose their salvation if they push the envelope too far and too long with the Lord, with no intentions of ever pulling out of their sinful behaviors, and no remorse for doing it in the first place.

6. A Sin Leading to Death

This next verse is very interesting. It talks about a sin that could lead to death and a sin that will not lead to death. I believe the word “death” could be referring to the deaths of our souls once we die and cross cover, which would mean going straight to hell when we die. Again, is this verse referring to Christians?

If it is, then it is definitely delineating between certain types of sins. It is implying that some sins are obviously worse than others. Some of these sins could cause us to lose our salvation and other types of sins will not. Here is the verse:

There is a sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.” (1 John 5:16-17)

God will obviously be the final judge on what sins could lead to death and which ones will not. But again, as a Christian, I would not want to be tempting my eternal fate with God the Father by engaging in some of the heavier sins mentioned in the above verses, thinking that He will look the other way just because we got saved earlier on in our lives.

7. Fallen From Grace

The Bible specifically tells us that we are “saved by grace.” However, this next verse specifically says that we can “fall from grace.”

If you put both of these phrases right next to one another, then I believe they could be telling us that a Christian could lose their salvation.

I believe the words “fallen from grace” means exactly what it is saying. If we have been saved by grace – then we can also “fall from that same saving grace.” This might be another powerful verse from the Lord showing us that we can lose our salvation with Him.

Notice also in the first part of this verse where it talks about becoming “estranged from Christ.” If you put these three words right next to the words “fallen from grace” – and they are all in the same verse – then once again I believe the implication may really be there that you can lose your salvation, and that another phrase to describe losing your salvation with the Lord is “falling from grace” – falling from the saving grace which you initially got saved in the first place!

Here is the verse:

“You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)

Put this verse together with all of the other ones mentioned above – and the Scriptural evidence may really be there that a Christian could possibly lose their salvation if they try and push the envelope to far with God the Father by falling into and engaging in some of the heavier type sins as described above.

8. Having Your Name “Blotted Out” From the Book of Life

I will leave with you with one very scary intense verse from the Bible. This verse is coming direct from Jesus Himself from the Book of Revelation.

“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (Revelation 3:5)

The Book of Life is a Book that has every single saved and born-again believer recorded in it. Once you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, your name is then written and recorded in this Book.

But notice what Jesus says in reference to this specific Book. He specifically says that he who “overcomes” will not have his name “blotted out” from this Book.

The word “blot” means “to rub or wipe out, to erase or get rid of.”

The fact that Jesus is telling us that our names can literally be blotted out from this Book is just more proof that we can possibly lose our salvation with Him. If your name could not be blotted out from this Book, then Jesus would have never made this specific statement in the first place.

But since He did, I believe this is another powerful Scripture verse that is showing us that we can lose our salvation in Him.

Also notice the specific word that Jesus is using to tie in this possibility – the word “overcomes.”

What is it that Jesus wants us to overcome?

One of the things that He definitely wants us to overcome is the temptation to fall and enter into some of these heavier sin areas. The Bible tells us that we must “endure” temptation.

To endure a temptation means you do not give into it, you do not cross the line – but if by chance you do fall into a specific temptation, to immediately pull out of it as soon as you can.

If you do not, and you do not overcome and pull out of this temptation within the time span that God is giving you to pull out of it, then your name could be blotted out from His Book of Life for all of eternity!

The other thing to pick up with the specific wording that Jesus is using in this verse is that once He blots out your name from His Book of Life – it will be for all of eternity.

There will be no second chance to get back in once you have been officially erased from His Book, just like the first verse I listed at the beginning of this article is telling us.

There is no other indication in this verse, or any other verses in the Bible, that this blotting out of your name can be reversed or rescinded.

The tone and straight forward way this verse is being worded is all showing us that not only can a person’s name be actually blotted out from this Book, but that once it is, it will be for all of eternity.

Again, if this was not an actual possibility, then Jesus would have never worded this verse the way He did. But the fact that He is specifically using the words of having your own personal name blotted out from His Book of Life is all showing us that this is a definite possibility if we have gone too far and wallowed too long in a heavier sin area.

Conclusion

You will each have to come to your own conclusions as to whether or not you feel a Christian can lose their salvation with the way all of the above verses are worded.

I personally believe that all of the above verses mean exactly what they are saying.

If you put all of the above verses together and right next to one another like you would pieces to a jigsaw puzzle, then I believe God the Father is giving us major insight and revelation that a Christian can lose their salvation if he “falls away,” if he “falls from grace,” if he becomes “estranged from Christ,” if he gets involved in a “sin that leads to death,” if he goes against the “will” of God the Father, if he returns once again to the “pollutions of the world,” and if he “sins willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth” that is contained in both God and Jesus.

I personally believe that all of the above verses, and specifically some of the key phrases mentioned in these verses, are simply way too much Scriptural evidence all showing that it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation with the Lord.

God and His Word will not be mocked. He will not put up with some of His own falling into some of these heavier sin areas, and then think that He will turn a blind eye to their sins, while all the while condoning their sinful activities thinking that the Blood of Jesus will keep them covered till the day they die.

I am afraid some Christians, who are living in some of these heavier sin areas on a regular and frequent basis with no intentions of trying to pull out of them, are going to be in for a very big surprise once they die and cross over and have to meet the Lord for their own personal final judgment.

Again, it would be our strong recommendation that you go direct to God the Father in prayer and ask Him to show you what the real truth is on this matter. All of the above are just our thoughts and opinions on this very controversial issue.

For the record, I hope that I am really wrong on my assessment on the above Scripture verses, as I would never want anyone to lose their salvation in the Lord.

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Comments

229 Responses to “Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?”

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  1. cyr - November 12, 2011 at 9:27 am

    People always are looking for compromise. Whenever, the enemy brings confusion in your mind, just ask the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself in you. look at the normal life, you can never compare God with some degree obtained in school. That once you have a bachelor’s degree, you have it, and it is can never be taken away from you. Even in natural lawyers can lose their license if they use it in wrong way. By grace we are saved, thru, Jesus Blood wiped away all sins past and present only. We are sealed by the Blood of Jesus. However, whenever you sin willingly, you break that seal and as the wage of sin is death, therefore you will lose your salvation, if you do not repent you will unfortunately end up in hell. Remember, before sin comes, there is temptation, once you obey to temptation, you birth sin and sin birth death and death takes you to the driest place with fire and tournaments. There is no temptation greater than our strength, whenever, you sin, you chose to sin because the grace is there to keep you from sinning. In summary, yes of course you can lose your salvation, otherwise, there will be no need for churches,no need for preaching on perseverance in prayer, no need for spiritual warfare. Beware, the devil is multiplying his territories to make sure he can take as many as children of God to hell with him. May God bless us all and open up our intelligence in Mighty Name of Jesus Christ.

    • Marty - September 17, 2017 at 10:59 am

      I stumbled upon this while pondering Ephesians 5:5 and must say that this study and reflection literally scared Hell out of me. My heart and soul is in a new and more acceptable place!

  2. Elijah - November 30, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Though there has been much debate on the subject over the years, I believe that the Bible is very explicit on this point. In fact, the book of 1 John was written to this point: “These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.(1 John 5:13).” Notice that the Apostle says you now have eternal life. We don’t get eternal life after we die… we have it right now, when we believe.

    Now, let’s follow this idea to its logical conclusion. If we know we have eternal life when we believe in Jesus, how long does eternal life last? Can you have eternal life for a year? A week? A day? If words mean anything at all, then eternal life must be eternal. It must last forever! Eternal life by definition cannot be lost.

    Let’s look at it another way. What sin is so big that Jesus’ death could not atone for it? There is none that I know of (we’ll exclude for the moment the passage of Mark 3:28-30, as it really doesn’t apply here). Every sin that man can commit against God and man, even the most heinous was dealt with at the cross of Calvary. If this is so, then what sin can be so bad that it would cause God to “unforgive” that which He has already paid for? Romans 8:38-39 explicitly states this, saying “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I am a created thing. The verse above states that created things cannot separate us from the love of God, therefore I cannot separate myself from the love of God, either!

    Also, in John 10:29, Jesus tells us “And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” No one includes me! Notice the picture here. You are being held in Jesus’ hand, and in the Father’s hand. Cup one of your hands over the other, as you would hold a frightened bird. That is the way God holds onto you.

    We believe as Christians that we are in a better position than before we were saved. Remember, there is nothing we can do to merit salvation, it’s all a work of God. Also remember, God predestined us to our salvation (Eph. 1:4). Would God make a mistake? No, I think the evidence clearly supports the view that your salvation is secure. That thought should be comforting in times of doubt.

    • Barbara - July 3, 2017 at 11:47 pm

      GOD will not hold us captive if we, ourselves want out to go sin if we think drunkenness and premeditated murder as just a few were going to come back and just jump back into His protective hands, that He is gonna say here I’m going to let you go sin and all you have to do when you get ready come on back jump right on back to me because your saved but the unsaved telling a lie, being a lier, that would make you better than them, they go to he’ll you go to heaven?

      • Joe Dykeman - December 5, 2017 at 9:46 pm

        We are saved unto Jesus not ourselves and the verse I think of is when one sinner repents the angles are rejoicing in heaven .So if they walk away and come back as you say. it wouldn’t make sense Christ died once for all one time so if we had to get saved over and over cause we choose to walk away he would have to die over and over

        • Joe Dykeman - December 5, 2017 at 9:55 pm

          God knows what we will do that’s why we can’t walk away so to speak . And in God’s eyes which are big sin is sin all the same. Expect rejection of the holy Spirit all that happens when we walk away we lose that fellowship with the Lord of Lord

      • Joe Dykeman - December 5, 2017 at 10:37 pm

        Ephesians 1:13 we have the seal of the holy Spirit that God put in us upon salvation. If God put it there then why do u think we can just walk away.Sin is sin in God’s eyes one is not greater than the other.It break’s our fellowship with him and he will chasten us for on sin goes unpunished. Reminder we are only human there is nothing good in us but but the holy Spirit

    • joah - July 4, 2017 at 4:12 am

      You have eternal life when you are in Christ Jesus, no one can ‘take’ you out of Him, however the bible is very clear that we can be cut of through our own disobedience or unbelief.

  3. Jan - December 7, 2011 at 4:39 am

    I read your above writings on losing your salvation and yes I agree with you. You can lose your salvation once you have been born again. Yes we are saved by the Blood of Jesus at the Cross and yes He has forgiven our past present and future sins, but God will not be mocked! In Rom 8v38-39 the only thing that can separate believers from God is God. He can do anything, He is Sovereign, you cannot put God in a box, He is limitless. Continuing to sin willfully and not repenting is an abomination to God. But if we repent He will continue to forgive us (1John1v9). If you are truly born again and have the Holy Spirit residing in you, you should be convicted of the sin and WANT to repent, this sin will be abhorrent to you and shame will cover you. Proverbs says the FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom. If you have the fear of losing your salvation then you will become wise and live by God’s laws and the ways of Jesus, then your salvation will be secure.

  4. Melandro Villadolid - December 11, 2011 at 11:59 pm

    If someone is truly repented and truly accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in the first he is forever save! For every work we did would be guided by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us once we do the acceptance of Jesus. A Christian that thinks salvation can be lose is not truly repented and accepted Jesus Christ in his life at all.

    • PJ - July 19, 2016 at 7:35 pm

      A person who keeps on sinning (practicing sin) has not truly repented. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more”. The pleasure of sin is what keeps people going back to it. However, a wise believer will learn to deny himself and follow Jesus in spirit and truth. The grace of God will teach and empower a believer to overcome by true faith and love. True saving faith always produces obedience. ….Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Hebrews 5:9.
      The gospels is made known to all nations for the obedience of faith Romans 16:25-26.
      Paul said he received grace and Apostleship for obedience of the faith among all nations…….Romans 1:5
      Faith without obedient actions is dead and cannot save. True saving faith works by love and endures to the end.

  5. Roger Wray - December 15, 2011 at 7:20 am

    There is a lot of scripture and thought here; so lets try to put it all together. If a person is truly saved, they should have a new heart (new desires) and eternal life. What if something tragic happens in their life such as the loss of someone close – maybe a 6 year old child is murdered by a drive by shooter. Jesus said it all with the parable of the seed in Luke 8:4-21. You can have real eternal life and lose it if you are deep rooted in your faith and trust. As strong as the disciples were, when Jesus went away to pray in the garden He told them to pray (Mt 26:41)or Satan would creep in. We are also told to pray always. Some go to church and never open their Bible or say a prayer at home. I believe the whole exercise here is two fold – you can be saved and have eternal life if you want it; or you can be saved and lose it. Like Adam we are given a choice and it is up to us to exercise it; God is waiting for our “final” decision.

  6. E Naranjo - December 22, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    The key here is allowing the Holy Spirit to show you the truth of the matter. For many years I was swayed from the truth of God’s word toward false doctrine because I was guilty of sitting in a pew and letting another man tell me what to think. When I truly surrendered to God, the Holy Spirit showed me with clarity the truth of whether or not a person can lose their salvation. Maybe their are some preachers out their who are correct in their doctrine, however, do not put your eternal destiny in their hands. Seek out a 1 on 1 relationship with the Son of God today! Study the Word and pray.

  7. Beth - December 27, 2011 at 1:20 am

    In the bible there are fallen angels, Satan being by far the most notorious and powerful, and people such as Saul and Judas who later turned away from God. Based on this, I think that there are believers who walk away from God and become so turned around in their heads, that they never again have the desire to be close to God. This is different from back sliding, or just losing one’s faith by sinning agregiously. I believe that I have witnessed someone knowingly, decisively walking away from God. This person stated very clearly that he once knew God, but now did not believe in Him as a God who wants to personally be involved in our lives. His personality changed and he has become increasingly further away from having anything to do with believers or God’s Word. I think it is possible that what is happened is that his heart has gotten harder and harder and harder, though he once knew the Truth of Jesus Christ. And so he has made the very conscious decision to let go of His salvation, since he wants to be his own god. And I think he is now so twisted in his thinking that it is not possible for him to ever have the desire to want to come back to Christ. So I think it is possible for a person to knowingly throw their salvation away. It has not really been lost, it has been thrown away. This is a terrfying thing to witness.

  8. Margo - December 31, 2011 at 5:55 pm

    Not everyone is “looking for compromise”.. as some of us are indeed conscientious and careful to make sure we have the Scriptures properly and accurately interpreted via the Holy Spirit, in so not to steer anyone wrongly or in any way mislead others when sharing our Faith and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    I agree wholeheartedly per lots of things presented here.. but, it went from “falling away” into the “22 Specific Sins That Could Keep You Out Of Heaven” in which, is totally and utterly taken out of context.. and also suggests “works” salvation.

    When we look at the scripture in 1 Corinthians 6:9.. if we know exactly what determines our righteousness and how we become righteous, we know it has nothing with any of the sins listed or any other sins.. with the exception of only one : Blaspheming the Holy Spirit aka refusing to accepting Gods Gift of Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ, as Savior.. and also, speaking ill of the Holy Spirit.

    It says “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?”.. and our question should be : How does one become righteous.. by stop doing or not doing any of the sins listed? Answer : NOPE!

    When we repent (have a change of mind) and turn to Jesus Christ in belief, trust and faith in Him.. saves us therefore, He makes us righteous, Just, Regenerated, etc…. we just believe on Him. God does all the saving.. we just receive it. We are then, RIGHTEOUS IN CHRIST. His righteousness in imputed to us.. and He is a veil over us.. so, when God, the Father looks at us, He is looking through Jesus Christ.. and sees the righteousness of Christ in us.

    Also, what about John 10:28-29? 28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

    Not to mention Ephesians 1:13-14 “13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

    The SEAL of the Holy Spirit isn’t so easily broken. Firstly, “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”…… the key term would be ‘PROMISE”.. So, is God a liar?

    Think about this : “Is there some sort of sin that the devil has come up with that TRUMPS WHAT JESUS CHRIST DID @ CALVARY? There is something the devil has in the way of sin that over-rides everything that God did in us INSTANTANEOUSLY, the moment we believed on Christ? For Him to take away our ETERNAL (no less) SALVATION, He would have to reverse everything He did in us when we were saved. He would have to make us no longer Righteous.. no longer Justified.. no longer Regenerated (through the process of “unregeneration??).. take back our PROMISED (no less) INHERITANCE.. totally UN-ADOPTING US AND KICKING US OUT OF THE FAMILY. GOODNESS! God’s a liar and an Indian-Giver, too? Bummer deluxxx!

    In all actuality, nobody “loses” their Eternal Salvation (whoooops! Where’d my salvation go?).. but, people can renounce God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.. washing their hands of the whole thing.. and perhaps, be removed per their own conscious request, from the family of God.

    The “Lord Lord!” bunch were never saved. Laying on of hands.. healing of the sick and casting out demons can indeed be done by the lost/unsaved. It happens all the time. satan can heal his own… being that he’s the one of whom made them sick in the first place.

    God says “depart from me, I NEVER knew you”….. not, ‘I once knew you but, I don’t know you now.’ “Never” means never!

    Perhaps, the Lambs Book of Life started off with everyones name in it.. being that Christ died for everyone? And as people rejected Christ into death, their names were blotted out?

    There is no “assurance” of our eternal salvation, if God is always playing “carrot and stick” with us.. as how are we ever to know that we know that we now we have eternal salvation if our “works” depend on our somehow “maintaining” what God has offered FREELY in the first place? And whats so “eternal” about that? Is God using words He doesn’t know the definitions of?
    I think not!

    No no no… we can and do have the BLESSED ASSURANCE of our own ETERNAL SALVATION.. if we are unwaveringly believing on, trusting in.. having faith in HIM ONLY (not Him and us) for our PROMISED ETERNAL SALVATION. We need not do anything to ‘maintain’ our salvation.. for fear of losing it.

    Reading Gods Word and getting it EXACTLY how God intends is paramount. He intends it ONLY ONE WAY.. not several ways and we may pick and choose which one suits us best. Too much misinterpretation and non-contextual reading and study have caused many to never become saved at all.

    In which, make the devil dance a Jig!

    Blessings!

  9. Beth - January 1, 2012 at 2:13 am

    Thank you very much Margo! I have really wrestled with this. There seems to be no evidence scripturally that you can lose your faith by committing a certain sin other than blasphemy, which entails consciously walking away from God. And if I understand God’s mercy and grace correctly, God has been there along the way when someone knowingly rejects Him, but that person has decided against God. So then this would mean there is free will?

  10. Tee - January 1, 2012 at 8:51 am

    I have a question? so if I accept Jesus as my savior and go back to all this. (Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9) I still will inherit the kingdom of God

  11. Margo - January 1, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Beth, I am not suggesting going out and living like the devil, by no means. And I know you didn’t take it that way.. but, some (many) try to suggest that when we are truly sealed in our Eternal Salvation, that somehow gives us ‘Carte` Blanc’ to sin aka a license to sin in which, its the very opposite. With our freedoms and liberties in Christ, comes great responsibility. If we understand exactly what the Lord has done for us, we ‘should’ be grateful enough to try and be obedient every chance we may get. You see, when we are obedient to God, He is then able to Bless us.. in which, reflects in this life and in the next. Its the “storing up treasures in Heaven” thingy.. but, it also draws us nigh to God even more in this life on Earth. Theres much to be said.. and all good.. all positive.. what getting more and more close to God can do for us. He will show us things in His Word that He deems us ready for.. that we may not have known during the relationship. When we are disobedient, we tie Gods Hands.. and He is unable to Bless us. When He says He will do ‘this and this and this’… if we do ‘this and this and that’.. being that He is not a liar, He will do what He says He will do. But, if we don’t do our part, being that He is not a liar, He cannot do what He said. I hope that makes sense.

    I wrestle with die-hard Calvinists (and Arminians, too.. just not as much) about God’s Sovereignty and Free-Will to make informed choices. Firstly, our thoughts and ways are not Gods thoughts and ways. We need not think we can somehow “get into Gods mind” ..because, it simply is not going to happen. Frankly, I couldn’t handle it if I could.. lol! Just as it is in His Word, what may seem as a “contradiction” when using our own human intellect, is indeed NOT.. if we treat the Bible like the ‘equation of words’ that it is and we simply, via the Holy Spirit.. work the equation by cross-referencing scripture with scripture. Gods Sovereignty and giving us Free-Will / Choice.. seems in our minds, an oxymoron. Kinda like “nice/devil” totally antonymous.. hehe. But, its not if God says its not.. end of story! And in so many words, He tells us via the scriptures, that we do indeed have free-will to make informed choices. Heres something wonderful, also : God doesn’t just love.. God IS love. Now, heres a truth per ‘love’ : ‘Love does not force.. love does not insist on its own way’… and you’re certainly welcome to use that, my dear friend. Thats a beautiful and wonderful thing. Calvinists refuse to accept it. They say that Christ died only for His Elect. It doesn’t take a Bible-Scholar to know thats vastly inaccurate. I remind them of John 3:16-18.. then, in their desperation.. they start telling me what the Greek words are for “Whosoever”.. and “Everlasting” are.. and I simply shake my head in conundrum-esque wonder. But, that passage of scripture as well as, many others.. tell us God has given us Free-Will to choose… and that Christ dies for ALL human-kind. They say.. “But, God predestined His Elect to be saved and go to Heaven since before the foundation of the world was lay”.. but, its all about contextual reading/study.. and understand things via the Holy Spirit.. in lieu of using what Calvin says as our standard guide-line.

    Heres what I believe the Holy Spirit has given me just real recently.. and I have become so excited in the Lord so much, I almost feel that I’ve been born-again, AGAIN.. haha! Praise GOD! Here we go : Before the ‘foundation of the world’ was set, God had a marvelously perfect plan.. a great plan in both size and mysterious wonder. He did indeed ‘predestine’ ALL of His creation (human-kind) to go to Heaven. Hey! If He says to us in His Word that His Will that NONE should perish, we know He had a plan that included ALL of human-kind.. not just a mere “elect” few. All are chosen.. all are elected. Hey! If God tells us the He has no respect of person, yes? Hello??? Rocket-science, its not! Amen??? Enter Adam & Eve : They were made perfect.. in His, Christ’s.. and the Holy Spirit’s image. “Image” is not just about aesthetics.. but, also demeanor. But, man is man and God is God. He said “let us make man in our image”.. not ‘totally and exactly just like us’.. lol!
    We all know the story.. so, when Adam & Eve disobeyed, they died spiritually on the spot.. and of course, they died physically eventually. Had they obeyed God, there would be no such thing as death.. in any form. In a way, I’m kinda glad it worked out as it did.. don’t think I’d care to live over 100 years, if that long. A walking scare-crow indeed!.. Eeeeeeks! hahaha!

    OK, Adam & Eve did what they did and God did what He did. And that left us stained with the original sin of Adam (Eve was the one tempted.. as satan knows our dispositions, as women.. we look for the good in others and are basically pretty naive at times.. even though, I’m learning.. hehe).. but, Adam joined her, as he wanted to please His wife (which brings us to why the Apostle Paul tells us that we should not get married.. because its way too distracting and while we are concentrating on keeping our spouse happy, we tend to drop the ball per God.. and God hates playing second-fiddle. But, Paul tells us that if we simply cannot control our sexual desires, by all means get married).. anyway, Adam wanted to please his wife and he partook of the Tree and so, we say “the sin of Adam”.. as he is the head of the household and he is the one held ultimately responsible.

    NOW, instead of all of us being predestined to Heaven, we are all predestined to Hell. When we are born, we are children of the devil. Don’t let anyone tell you in passing.. “we are all Gods children”.. because that vastly and grossly inaccurate. One BECOMES a child of God. Of course, when little babies and children up until they’ve reached the ‘age of accountability’ should pass away, they go to Heaven. There is no set age.. God works with us on our own level.. so, for some it may be as young as 5.. while others may be as old as 9-10.

    The Calvinists make it seem as though God has created a bunch of mindless drone-puppets whom are gonna be saved dog-gone-it whether you like it or not! LOL! He chose them and saves them no matter what. But, the Gift of Grace is indeed just that.. ‘a GIFT’ and it is offered to us.. and we may choose to accept it therefore, have it… or choose to reject it and not have it 🙂

    Thanks for your lovely question, Beth. May the Lord richly Bless you and yours in this new year!

    • Joseph Dawson - December 8, 2017 at 1:42 am

      As much as I don’t want to say it, I think you may be totally mistaken.
      Although it’s a pretty thought.

      let’s carefully examine what Paul said in Romans 8 brothers and sisters in Christ

      There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the SPIRIT. 2For the law of the SPIRIT of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the SPIRIT. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God.

      Romans 6King James Version (KJV)

      6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

      2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

      3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

      4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

      5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

      6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

      Here’s the real clincher,

      The closer indeed :

      Hebrews 10:26-28King James Version (KJV)

      26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO more sacrifice for sins,

      27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

      28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

      King James Version (KJV)
      Public Domain

      Let’s face it,
      If you are not totally convicted of WILLFULL sin OR you continue to sin in secret WILLFULLY or without conviction you either never were truly saved in the first place or have chosen to do what YOU want.

      The scriptures don’t lie.

      When Jesus said ” no can pluck them from the My Fathers hand”
      True indeed , but one thing our Father won’t take away is our free will. We can pluck ourselves out or we were never really in his hand , 6 one way half a dozen the other.
      Just like a Christian can’t be cursed , but they can curse themselves through continued willful and unrepented sin.

      The evidence in Gods word clearly displays time and time again throughout many many scriptures that through free will and willful sin some can fall away/be deceived ” if possible even the elect”

      I can’t say im happy about this , I wrestled with some stuff for some time.
      We are all in this together ,sometimes it’s not easy to crucify our flesh , we brothers and sisters in Christ are going through the same thing everyday TOGETHER to an extent. And remember if something seems to good to be true , it usually is.

      “He who endures to the END shall be saved”

      So keep fighting the good fight !

      It’s sooooo gonna be worth it!

      Many blessings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ !

      And remember we are talking about CONTINUING of UNREPENTED SIN , we all sin UNWILLINGLY everday and repent, we are in flesh. We MUST not continue in WILLFUL sin that we have been convicted of. Remember God knows are hearts ❤️. And we must also ask the Holy Spirit to convict us if we have been in a certain sin for so long that maybe our conscience has been seared. If you think something may be a sin it usually is, better to ask the Holy Spirit to convict you and you will find out for sure.

      God bless you all in Christ Jesus Precious mighty name

  12. j Calado - January 12, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    I think that eternal security is just a way to comfort people who want to sin. If we’ll never lose salvation, why bother about sin at all? This is a thorn that has sent many people to hell! If eternal security is true, why there wete so many advices regarding apostasy? Why would Jesus tell us not to sin if sin would not lead us to hell? What about that churches in Revelations who had gone away from the “Fist Love”? Why try to be perfect as Jesus is?

    “Wherefore (as the Holy Spirit saith, To-day if ye will hear his voice,
    Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:” Hebrews 3:7-8

    “For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;” Hebreus 3:14

    There’s an “IF”, and it is directed to US, not to GOD. His job is to GIVE us salvation, and our job is to KEEP our salvation by keeping our faith alive. Of course He will help us in this task, bit it is OUR task!

    “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man sayeth he hath faith, and hath not works? can faith save him?
    If a brother or sister is naked, and destitute of daily food,
    And one of you sayeth to them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Also a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and tremble.
    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Ye see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
    James 2:14-26

    People say “Oh, but I belive, and the bible says that is I believe..”
    James answered to this kind of people. I can even see that sarcasm in his faith when he said:

    “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and tremble. ” James 2:19

    If someone believe in who Jesus is, he/she is not doing any remarkable stuff. Even satan does that, and he’s not earning any eternal life for that.

    The solution to this is the last verse: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.” James 2:26

    We’re saved by faith only, works cannot buy such a gift as our salvation. Nevertheless, our faith has to be kept alive by good deeds.

    • Joseph Dawson - December 8, 2017 at 1:49 am

      I agree with you whole heartedly .
      Great comment and scripture references

      Good comment and be Blessed in Our Lord and Risen Master and savior Jesus Christ ❤️

  13. Margo - January 12, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    j Calado : I really does not matter what one “thinks”.. as the Gospel is what it is.. and says what it says. And it doesn’t always “say” what it reads.

    Gods promise of Eternal Salvation is just that… a promise. It is one that He makes to us. We don’t make any promises.. and regardless if or not we do, man tends to be apt to sometimes and for whatever reason(s) ‘break’ promises.. whereas, God sticks to His Word regardless.

    We don’t save ourselves. God does the saving and all of the saving. We simply believe on Him and trust solely in Him.. not Him and ourselves.

    What kind of assurance of salvation is it if we must in anyway depend on ourselves? Its not. We trust in Christ to do it all. He’s already done it at the Cross and beyond.. and we receive it. Anything from that point, on… He does it.

    I would invite you to read the Word and pray for guidance in so you will know exactly what God has done and is doing in us.. and disallow any ‘thoughts’ that sway you toward something other than Gods Word.

    Those of whom die and go the Hell, were never saved in the first place.

  14. Mike B - January 16, 2012 at 11:28 am

    At what point was I name written in the book of life, and where in the scripture?

  15. Margo - January 17, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    Mike B..

    Great question.. complex answer. As I understand it, there is the ‘Book of Life’ and the ‘Lambs Book of Life’.. and there is a book that records our deeds, good and bad.

    The Book of Life, everybody’s name is recorded into from the foundation of the world was lay. If an individual dies unsaved, their name is blotted out.
    (Ps. 69:28.. Rev.3:5)

    The Lamb’s Book of Life holds only the names of those whom believed on Jesus Christ and are born-again aka saved. When an individual turns to Christ, believing on Him for his/her Eternal Salvation and forgiveness of sin, that persons name is written in the Lambs Book of Life, at that very moment. Their names can never be blotted out of this book.

    I cannot find any scripture to back up exactly what I am conveying to here per the Lambs Book of Life. But, we do know whom the “Lamb” is, yes? So, just as I remind some, the Word of God is an ‘equation of words’.. and we must firstly become saved and therefore, possess the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for His leadership and guidance throughout the scriptures, in so to have proper and accurate interpretation, thereof… hence, Biblical knowledge and understanding the way God intends for His Own to have.

    Then, there is a couple of other books that will be opened, one per each of the two Resurrection judgments.. one for the deeds, good and bad.. for the saved, which determines their reward. This transpires at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    The books opened at the second Resurrection contains the deeds, good and bad of the unsaved.. and the other is the Book of Life in which those peoples names were blotted from since they died without Christ. This is at the Great White Throne of Judgment.. in which, all will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
    (Rev.20:12-15)

    God Bless!

  16. Nathan Scott - January 23, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Thank you for you inseight; As I was reading I thought, I a person chose
    to believe that salvation could be lost; where then is HOPE,if we do not
    have hope, where then is FAITH, if we do not have JOY, How then can we
    endure LONG SUFFERING, and without these blessings as well as others written
    in the Scriptures how could we know and experience God’s LOVE. The love
    of God passeth all understanding. For those who choose this way it is hard
    to believe that they are truly saved in the first place. Please understand
    that I am not being crytical of my brothers and sisters in the Lord for we
    do not always kinow who the elect ones of God are. We must spend time in
    prayer seeking to uphold Him at evey opportunity so that others can experience the ETERNAL SALVATION which is freely given, nothing to God I
    bring, simply to the Cross I cling.
    God is blessing you, thank you; Nathan

  17. Beth - February 15, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    If someone wants to throw away his/her relationship with Christ and get a “divorce” from God, it seems to me that is possible. And so, I think someone can consciously choose to lose his salvation. But I do not buy all the varying sin levels that some people think can cause one to lose salvation. That makes no sense. But now that I have seen it happen, I really think a person can consciously walk away from God forever. And it is chilling to the bone to witness such a thing. In this case a person is not really losing their salvation, they are choosing to leave Jesus, and getting a divorce from Him. It is a conscious choice, not a loss or a slip.

  18. Margo - February 16, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    AC and Beth, AMEN! I believe that very same thing. A person can probably renounce Christ and ‘divorce’ Him and perhaps, God will give that individual the desires of his/her heart and allow it to be so.

    But, on the other hand.. it seems so difficult to fathom that someone would ever do such a thing.. which makes me wonder if they were truly saved to begin with?

    But, the Word of God does tell us in Romans 6:4 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

    So, it must be possible… no matter how unfathomable.

    Blessings!

  19. ccccc - February 16, 2012 at 11:17 pm

    I believe that you cannot lose your salvation. Bottom line is, if you say that a Christian can lose his salvation, you are basically saying that our salvation is DEPENDENT ON GOOD WORKS, which cancels out God’s gift of GRACE. And whenever you do sin, it doesn’t mean you lose your salvation/relationship with God. Sure, you may lose FELLOWSHIP (speaking to God on a regular basis, hearing Him speak to you, or receiving his blessings and being the best person you can be), but the RELATIONSHIP is still there.

    I won’t go into LOTS detail, because some people have already stated what I needed to say.

    The thing that got me here,is when you say ‘heavier sins’. To God, there are no such sins as HEAVIER sins. ALL sins are equal. Lying is equivalent to murdering; adultery is equivalent to stealing, etc. The only thing God says is unforgivable, is blashpemy. SIN IS SIN.

    In the end, our salvation is not determined by our works (sure we will be judged for every single one of them on Judgment day), but if we truly believed and have a relationship with Christ in the first place. We’re not perfect. Everyone is going to sin. But that does not mean the relationship is not there anymore.

  20. E Naranjo - February 17, 2012 at 12:23 am

    Here is my story. I was active in church at a young age. By the age of 5 I knew that Jesus sacrificed His life for the human race so that we could gain eternal life through Him. On the same day that I recieved Christ into my life I was also baptised next to my father. I attended a Baptist academy for 3 years and then went to a Baptist perochial school until I was expelled in the middle of my 11th grade year. By then I had already experimented with marijuanna and alcohol. This allowed me to “be somebody” and get recognition by rebelling. I was married with a child on the way at age 18. Worked construction and bought a house. I put God on the back burner and catered to my own selfish desires. Does this sound like anyone you know? Eventually I began to take the belief that the Bible was a bunch of rubbish. I blamed all of the hypocrite preachers that I had met in my lifetime. Next I questioned the whole idea of God and His creation scenario. Head over heals in drugs and alcohol I entertained the idea of suicide for years. Demons followed me and tortured me to the point where they would attack me after I went to bed. It got worse. It got to the point where they would start to invade and torment me before I would go to sleep. It seemed as though I had no more control of my life. As long as I was awake I was drunk and usually high. What started out as 1 or 2 beers after work had now almost completely destroyed my life. I remember telling my mother and wife that 1.) I knew Christ was born of a virgin. 2.) He died and arose to save those who would have Him. 3.) Someday He will return for His children but, If I died today I believe that I would go straight to HELL! PLEASE understand this one thing! Even though I asked Christ into my life I reached a point where I was walking away from God. I was distancing myself from Him. Eventually I not only abandoned Jesus but I flat out rejected Him. He ( God ) told me that If I rejected Him then this would be the result. A separation that would lead to death. I decided to commit myself to an institution of some sort. My wife told me that all they would do is medicate me and lock me in a depressing room to rot. The only rational thought that I could think was coming through with astoundind clarity. Over and over I kept hearing in my head louder and louder… it was a verse I learned in ” sunday school ” PROVERBS 3:5,6 “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” That was it. That was the solution. That very minute I decided that if God could and would take my pathetic, drunken, and foolish life and fix it that I would do it. I would take Him off from the back burner and make Him first in my life. You see I was taught that once I got saved ( which I was ) I was good to go and would automatically be covered by grace so as to somehow wind up in heaven. Hebrews 6:4 says that I was once enlightened, I tasted of the heavenly gift, I was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, but God showed me that If I rejected Him that I would fall away seeing that I was now crucifying the Son of God afresh. Paul used the word “Impossible” I looked it up in the concordance. Guess what it means? It is actually literal, it means impossible. I was taught one thing but found out the hard way that I was indeed not walking with Christ. I don’t know about you but I do know about me! I was at the end of my rope. It was God’s last warning. Christian friends, if you are walking with Christ then praise God. You have nothing to worry about. However do not be mislead into thinking that you can live contrary to God’s word because I can guarantee you that the end is DEATH. Thank you Jesus for your truth and another chance to live for you, I owe it all to You Lord! God bless those that bless others! E Naranjo

  21. Margo - February 17, 2012 at 10:47 am

    E Naranjo : Great testimony.. and one, I think.. many of us can relate to. The point per one not losing ones vs losing ones Salvation (if thats really possible)has to do with ‘conscious effort'(intentions).. as you stated that you came to the point that you “began to take the belief that the Bible was a bunch of rubbish”.. and thats really treading on thin-ice. Sounds to me like you were seriously ready to throw in the towel where God was concerned and renounce Him completely once and for all. If a person does that, I am leaning toward ‘God may cut them loose’.. but, it’s hard to say for sure. Romans 6:4 leads me to think this is the case. But, God knows our hearts and our truest of true intentions.. and while some may get very angry with God and even curse Him because of some tragedy in that persons life, God would know for sure if or not that individual was dire serious.. or if that person was hurt/angry and venting. From what you’ve shared, you must had not really meant all the negative things you started ‘believing’.. as it was due to drug and alcohol use and spiritual warfare in which, seemed like you were losing. As you did finally retrieve your bearings and walk back to the Lord. And He has welcomed you with open-arms, yes? Praise God for that! You were going through a rough-spell.. and I think most of us have done that. Personally, I have never lost my Faith through my waywardness and always knew that had I died during those times, that I would go to Heaven.

    Fact is, Salvation is a Gift of God, offered to us all. If we accept the Gift, we have it. And its sealed by the Holy Spirit. We did nothing to obtain it, except ‘believe’ on Jesus Christ.. so, we cannot ‘do’ anything to lose it. “Works”.. “Deeds” have nothing to do with our Eternal Salvation.. but, everything to do with everything else. Our obedience strengthens our walk with God and adds to our reward in Heaven. Heaven is not our reward.. it is a promise.. and a Gift. ‘Rewards’ are somethings that are worked for and earned. So, our actions.. the way we live our lives after having been saved, either add to or take away from our reward in Heaven. So, people may never show any Fruits of the Spirit once saved, so they’ll not have and rewards coming to them.. but, they’re still saved. If we don’t have anything to do with our own Salvation other than ‘believe’ then, as long as we believe then, we are persevering.. and we must do that unto the end, to see the full fruition. AMEN!

    Blessings!

    • Larry - June 14, 2016 at 3:41 pm

      Hi Margo and Naranjo, may God receive the Glory.

      Margo you said this:
      I am leaning toward ‘God may cut them loose’.. but, it’s hard to say for sure.

      Fact is, Salvation is a Gift of God, offered to us all. If we accept the Gift, we have it. And its sealed by the Holy Spirit. We did nothing to obtain it, except ‘believe’ on Jesus Christ.. so, we cannot ‘do’ anything to lose it.

      To stop believing required the same choice as accepting salvation. So your choices still have consequences. The Seal of the Holy Spirit is in Christ not our believing or it would be works. Our choice to break our covenant to Christ means we have chosen it and God still did not break anything. E Naranjo has chosen to Glorify God by giving him his testimony to truth that we can forfeit the salvation that is available in Christ by what we believe and what we choose to do in our self “will” which is the flesh. A study in Romans 7-8 will verify that we can walk in the flesh or by the Spirit even though we are believers. But living in the flesh still has consequences as Paul clearly teaches. We all have eternal life, that was determined by God before he created all of us, just where we will end up when we receive eternal life after death of the flesh is determine by us and how we live our life in Christ, free will has no place in God’s Kingdom it must die before we receive what I provided in Christ. You ae correct, non of us can lives in less, but the Bible clear, we can by walking in the Holy Spirit for we will not sin. Jesus was our example, if he did it by the Holy Spirit as a man, then so can we.
      To believe no matter what you believe or do in he flesh does not matter is not what Jesus Christ said. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
      Romans 8:1 (KJV) We must walk after the Spirit to be sealed by and through Spirit, no believe and nothing else matters?

  22. Margo - February 18, 2012 at 11:00 am

    AC, you’re such a blessing! Thank you for your ‘reinforcement’ via the Holy Scriptures.. reiterating the fact that when we turn to Jesus Christ for our Eternal Salvation and forgiveness of sins, it is indeed, SEALED by the Holy Spirit and nothing we or anyone else can do to break that seal! Praise God!

  23. Beth - February 18, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    I am glad site such as this is around. Of all people, believers need to keep talking and thinking and praying and reading scripture and working out their faith with fear and trembling. It always gives me great reassurance when I hear from other believers who are thinking and praying through things as I am. In the epistles, from hearing Paul write, you can tell that leaders in the church did not alway agree with each other, and they had to work things out. So many people I know thing that Christians are mindless. Blogs such as this show that to be wrong. Thank you so much everyone, for your input.

  24. David - February 20, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Just a question. What about Ananias and Saphira? When they fell dead for lying to the Holy Spirit, have they died because of God;s chastisement as God’s children but remain in relationship with God ie still saved or have they lost their salvation?

  25. Margo - February 20, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    David, I think they died for being religious hypocrites. What they did by giving a portion of the money they received from the land they sold, was not the sin.. as they had a just right to do with it what they desired. But, lying to God about it, saying they gave it all.. in so to make themselves seem greater and more noble than they really were, to those looking on. They were seeking praise from others.. giving their portion for all the wrong reasons.. unlike the reasons Barnabas gave his sold land proceeds. Surely, they lied to Peter… but, Peter lied to others, denying knowing Jesus Christ. And we know what the Word of God tells us in the Book of Matthew 10:33 “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” I’m sure Peter was forgiven, as his life as a whole showed that Peter was a disciple who confessed Christ.

    The Word of God tells us in Romans 6:23 “For THE WAGES OF SIN is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”…. meaning Adams transgressions plagued the world with death.. both physically and spiritually. When we come to Jesus Christ, we are made spiritually alive.. and thats sealed by the Holy Spirit. And if God delays the Rapture of the Church, it is inevitable that we will all die physically. Perhaps, Ananias and Sapphira died physically and not spiritually? Its kinda hard to say for sure. The Bible doesn’t say.

    Blessings!

  26. Ben - February 21, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and you have used all of the versus that might possibly lead someone to believe (or might possibly be saying without a doubt) that a Christian can lose your salvation……but I’ve got two responses…

    1) There are also a ton, A TON of versus that say salvation is everlasting, eternal, can’t be taken away, faithful, etc. So which is it???? I personally don’t know.

    2) If you can lose your salvation, can you get it back a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time? I actually just re-dedicatated my life to Christ last month after not living a Christian life for the past 3-4 years. Was I lost that whole time??? I felt convicted daily….I knew God wasn’t happy with me….so to me that was the Holy Spirit. And if that was the Holy Spirit that means I never lost it. Interesting….

    • Mike Bradley - February 21, 2012 at 4:48 pm

      Ben,

      You are right. You had never lost your salvation. You were just in a backslidden state. Just like the prodigal son, you can have your relationship restored back with God by coming back directly to Him, especially if you are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit to do so.

      Mike

  27. Don - February 26, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    David
    I ask you. Did you ever lie to God? Maybe something like look God It’s not my fault the devil tempted me. Or what about, Eve gave me the fruit and she told me to eat of it.
    Lying to God brings death, at least in the latter example. Physical as well as spiritual death came to Adam and eve as well as all humans. Jesus is the only way to be saved of a spiritual death but not a physical one. Ananias and Saphira may have accepted Jesus and savior and we don’t know that. They died physically but not spiritually if they were true Christians. Do you think Adam and Eve are in Heaven? I think the point that was made here is , you can’t lie to God and think you’re getting away with something because you’re not and never will.

  28. Daniel - March 12, 2012 at 11:56 am

    All can fall away if would not be the Grace of God. Who can stand on his own? Is there any one who agrees with this blog that could say; Yes I can do it, I will endure it to the end’ Peter in the bible promised the Lord the same thing, you know what happened next? He failed.

    Being confident of this very thing, that HE which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6 KJV)

    NOT YOU. !!!!!

    If you still think is you, you are still in great danger. You are still trusting in your own flash and strives. Prepare yourself for great disappointments. I’ve been there, I’ve done that…and I cannot trust myself for a minute, but I want to rely on Christ alone since there is NO Hope with me.

    You fall out of grace,so to say , when you rely on your own strength since Christ is not of any use for you.

  29. Margo - March 12, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Sister V ~ “Fall away” mentioned in Luke 8:13 is speaking about believing and in times of of temptation, fall away.. meaning, they stop believing. Not being tempted to sin and doing so. Same thing in Hebrews 6:6. A conscious effort in renouncing God. Not living in any sort of sinful lifestyle. If that were the case, you’re saying that satan has some sins that trumps what Christ did on Calvary.. and thats impossible. Lots of Christians remain baby-Christians.. and bear little to no fruits of the Spirit.. but, that does not make them any less saved. There are lots of things we, as Christians “should” do.. but, many do not. Regardless, none of which effects our Eternal Salvation. It does effect our Reward or lack thereof. Biblical Repentance is simply having a change of mind toward God and toward sin.. and turning to God for forgiveness of sins past, present and future.. and for Salvation. He does all the rest. He makes all the pertinent changes in us as He deems necessary. Once we are saved, our Spirit has been reborn.. but, we will still have the old nature. Any changes made in that department is a process and is done by God.. not ourselves. We should keep a repentant heart, knowing and understanding we are still sinners, saved by Grace. In Romans 7, Paul speaks of his own condition, post-conversion. Also, demons and unclean spirits cannot co-exist with the Holy Spirit. A Born-Again Believer cannot have demons and unclean spirits in them. The only VEIL I have over me is Jesus Christ 🙂

    Daniel ~ You’re absolutely right! Thank you for that 🙂

    Blessings!

  30. Dan - March 12, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Some paraphrase JOHN 3:16
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have TEMPORARILY life.

    Involunteerly someone can insult God and call Him an incapable God by beliving that He is not able to do and fullfill what He has promissed us oe began in us. Also, insult God by suggesting that; the sacrifies He provided in His ONLY son Jesus, is not good enough, since is not capable to cover for all your sins only for the “cheese” once. If you ever had that somewhere in the back of your mind then, you might also could think that you have to somehow make it up for Christ’s weak sacrifies by adding some of your good works to it – to complete it before God. (Might as well get some credit, too). Are you ready to hear what God could say? He is saying that if my perfect sacrifies is not enough for your Eternal Salvation, there is no other Christ to be sacrified that is better than the ONE I already provided. (What could be a greater premeditated “work of iniquity” than to insult God’s perfect work and his Sacrifies and bring it to such a low level (of a dirty rag) thinking that your good works could complete the work for your Salvation? You be the judge of it. NO wonder God told those “good workers” ….”I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”

  31. dan - March 13, 2012 at 1:24 am

    Some paraphrase JOHN 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have Eternal/TEMPORARILY life.
    (Dude, you might say, you don’t make any sense. How can it be Eternal and Temporarily? Isn’t it an oxymoron?) Well, some brothers believe that this Eternal life that was promised by God is Eternal until you made the right/wrong move. If that will be true God has to go though all that trouble to undo everything he has done on the cross for you when He saved you (i.e. “un-crucify” Jesus,- since he already paid for all your sins on the cross – ONCE FOR ALL, somehow un-born you from God’s/Spirit and crucify Christ again for the rest of us who are still good etc…etc.. What a mess!!) just to change your status from Eternally saved to dammed again. (Why would He do that? You’ll ask. It only makes sense if His sacrifices is not capable to cover for the wrong move. Right? Wait, if you repent again the right way, God could change your status again to Eternally Saved. Do we have such an undecided God, you might ask? NO we DON’T!!. While we were sinners DEAD in our sins Jesus died for us and loved us. By grace with no merit we were saved. God knows the material from which we are made also since he is crafting us – don’t be deceived.

    Involuntarily someone can insult God by beliving that He is not capable to do and fullfill what He has promised us or began in us. Also, insult God by suggesting that the sacrifies He provided in His ONLY son Jesus, is not good enough. After all His sacrifices is not capable to cover for all your sins only for the “cheese” once. If you ever had that understanding somewhere in the back of your mind then, you might also could think that you have to make it up for Christ’s weak and lacking sacrifice by adding some of your good works to it – to make that complete before God. (Might as well get some credit towards your salvation). Don’t be surprised if you find out what God has to say about this. He is saying; if you don’t accept my perfect sacrifice as being good enough to cover for your sins and secure your Eternal Salvation forever, then you are on your own – “if you endure to the end”- What could be a greater premeditated “work of iniquity” than to insult God’s perfect work and his Sacrifies and bring it to a such low level (of a dirty rag=your good works) thinking that your good works could be added to God’s perfect sacrifice? You be the judge of it. NO wonder God rebuked and told those “good workers” ….”I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” *They had a lot of good works to present before the Lord in exchange for their salvation forgetting that it is not by works you are are saved but, by the Grace of GOD through the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus.

  32. PenguinTodd - April 19, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    I don’t agree that one can Lose Salvation. I believe SAVED is SAVED (though different from once saved always saved— I have a long explanation for hating the use of that phrase, it essentially is used to justify sinning, when you think about it). I believe the problem is in how we understand or define the following terms/conditions: salvation, grace, Christ’s role, what a gift is and repentance. First, let me argue from an opposite state and show by logic how losing salvation is a false conclusion. Then, I’ll address each of the 8 points, in what I believe is the true meaning of each.

    Assume it is true that you’ve lost your salvation. Okay, then how do we get it back? We are left with two options: one, we can’t because Christ cannot be sacrificed again so we are lost forever. This would imply that Christ’s death and gift was temporary because it was contingent upon us. I was saved by Christ’s sacrifice but now I don’t have it. This then contradicts the definitions of gift and eternal and by grace and not of works. Okay, option two, we can be “re-saved.” Well how then? Not by Christ because he can’t be sacrificed again so it would have to be by our actions and deeds, thus merited works which is a contradiction to salvation, gift, and grace.

    Fundamentally, we have to understand two conditions: the Righteousness of God and the unrighteousness of sin. We are saved when we come to understand and accept the righteousness of God through Christ (believing His WORD) and understanding and accepting our sin nature. This is the essential basics of faith and the only thing counted as our righteousness for we have two things properly before God: God and sin. For this, God forgives us. Our sins no longer exist (meaning we are no longer in sin but now BORN AGAIN before God, Righteous in the blood of Christ. Christ is ALWAYS Righteous before God. Christ’s state never changes; therefore, our state never changes either).

    Now addressing the 8 points:
    1. A Falling Away:
    Understand that this is dealing with Jews who at the time partook/witnessed the miracles of Christ, healings of the Holy Spirit, and who were moved by these events. But, returned to their traditions of seeking deliverance under the Law. Accepting who Christ was/is a big problem because for a Jew to accept Christ as his Savior was/is to be denounced by his family and friends (thus Christ’s saying “…he who isn’t willing to leave their mother or father is unworthy of me.”) Essentially, what we have here is a person who was brought to the brink of salvation (tasted but didn’t eat) but turned from it and went back to their old ways of believing. Paul is saying, what can he testify of that is a greater good such to deliver them from their old ways. Nothing! As they have gotten from Christ His miracles and the Good News. So, what is left to offer for their conversion to Christ? Thus, they are lost for good.
    Condition: Person understands sin, but does not understand God and His means of deliverance from sin through the blood of Christ. They are trusting in another way for their salvation.
    2. Sinning Willfully After Receiving the Knowledge of the Truth
    This is in reference to a person who has been witnessed to and has a rightful understanding of the Good News (Gospel). This person prefers sin and its worldly rewards over God. This person is not saved. Typically, they just cannot come to accept that God really has that much wrath against sin and HOPES to still receive the grace of forgiveness.

    Condition: Wrong understanding of sin but knowledge of God and Christ. They don’t have salvation because they haven’t nailed their sins on the cross. Thus, they don’t have a sacrifice for their sins and are lost in them.

    3. Becoming Entangled Again in the Pollutions of the World
    This is partially 1 and 2 combined. These people know about sin, and that they are in sin and know about God’s wrath about sin. They just can’t come to Christ. Most likely these are people who believe they are saved when they are not because they continue in the WORLD and not in the WORD. They aren’t convicted and committed, similar to the lukewarm church syndrome. They hear the Word, sounds great and good. But, go out thinking hey I still get to justify my SUV, big house and stuff… They haven’t humbled themselves before God and committed to His Righteousness. They want the best of both worlds. But, Christ said you cannot have two masters. So they are lost or will be if they don’t come to a true repentance before God and trust in Christ.

    Condition: Have semi-understanding of God and Sin and Gospel of Christ, but haven’t taken it to heart and committed. Typical language used will be to justify their ways and to say well Christ covers it and God understands. NO! You need to convict yourself before God, not justify yourself before him.

    4. 22 Specific Sins That Could Keep You Out of Heaven
    This is just applying bad theology. These are listing of sins such to define a state of being unsaved. This is not a list of unpardonable sins. There is only one unpardonable sin: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This should be used more as a list of the kind of folks who we need to be witnessing to– not folks who cannot be saved.

    In typical use of this verse to promote as those who cannot be saved, the verse that follows 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is omitted. It says, 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Here we have that SOME OF THESE VERY PEOPLE WERE SAVED!

    Condition: Unsaved folks who need to be witnessed to who need our compassion and diligence of understanding and forgiveness such to bring hope that they might be saved through Christ and the Gospel.

    5. Not Everyone Who Calls Jesus “Lord, Lord” Will Make it Into Heaven
    This is in reference to false Christians; Tares that grow up amongst the good crop; Wolves wrapped up in sheep’s clothing to lead the flock astray. This is why it is important as Paul said to test all things (people and their fruit) and for us to check our faith and our walk daily before the Lord. These people will justify themselves but convict you. As Christ said, do as they say but not as they do.

    Condition: Not saved. Promote a false righteousness. Haven’t convicted sin in their own lives and haven’t truly accepted God’s Righteousness (but love to preach it to others).

    6. A Sin Leading to Death
    This is dealing with sin in our life that will lead to God taking our natural life but not our spiritual life in Christ. Basically, you’re not being fruitful in use to Christ, not pursing sanctification of the Word and in walk. Christ doesn’t just want to save us but through us use us to witness to others. If we aren’t of use then we could ultimately be taken from this world. We risk losing rewards in Heaven and the enjoying the fullness of Heaven. Encouragement: Don’t just settle for salvation, be profitable for the Lord!

    Condition: Saved, just not following through properly in sanctification and witnessing for the Lord.

    7. Fallen From Grace
    This is about falling from grace not from SAVING grace. This is similar to 6 above. Think about David and his sins. He lost his joy of salvation and his kingdom was not being blessed. When it was made known to him about his sins he repented. There was still a punishment (child died) but he was delivered and his joy was returned.

    This is a call for us to remain diligent in bringing our sins before Christ; to not become complacent in our faith, salvation and attitude. We should rejoice before the Lord, be forth coming in confession of our sins (just talk with him daily), READ THE BIBLE daily. Take refuge in him. He wants us to be close to Him.

    Condition: Saved, but threat of losing God’s grace or blessings in our life because of a failure to remain diligent to our faith and to the conviction of sin in our life.

    8. Having Your Name “Blotted Out” From the Book of Life
    Okay, here is my understanding of this. When Christ first came he was given a few (disciples) to keep. He succeeded. He was rewarded with what? ALL AUTHORITY.
    This is a picture of our own salvation and rewards. What we do with what is given to us can then be rewarded with even more, exponentially even.

    Okay, so what does that have to do with “Blotted out” from the Book of Life? See, my belief is that with His obedience to death on the cross as Christ said, he now has All Authority. Meaning, everyone born is now under his grace and his authority and thus, in His Book of Life. Those in Christ remain in Christ and thereby, their name remains in the Book of Life. Those not in Christ will be “Blooted Out” removed from His Book of Life.

    Condition: Grace of eternal life has come TO ALL in the form of Christ’s sacrifice, His blood shed on the cross. But, only those who believe shall be saved.

  33. Margo - April 21, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    PenguinTodd ~ Very informative views and I agree with most. #2 I would have to address those of whom get divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarry another. The Word of God says they’re committing adultery.. so, is that a ‘one-time’ thing or are they continuously living in sin? My guess is.. its covered in the blood. Sin is sin.. willful or not, our sins are forgiven. Sins (past, present and future) are nailed to the Cross for those of whom believe on Jesus Christ. Christians sin.. and their sins are forgiven.

    Per 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.. I believe Paul was speaking to Christians and non-Christians, with the topic being “unrighteous”.. as opposed to the few sins listed as examples of the things many in Corinth were caught up in. By forsaking any of these sins does not make a person righteous.. but, only believing on, having faith and trust in Jesus Christ (only).. we are ‘made’ righteous in Him. Verse 11 saying “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” is speaking of “unrighteous”.. not partakers of any of the listed sins.

    Per ‘blotted out’.. there is the Book of Life in which, is a record of everyone born.. and there is the “Lamb’s Book of Life” which is a record of every Born-Again Christian. If a person passes away in an unbelieving state, their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15 is speaking of the lost.. the unsaved.

  34. PenguinTodd - April 21, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    Let me begin by saying thank you Margo for your follow-up on my comments and bringing more clarity. The first topic on adultery is an interesting reflection and one I haven’t given much thought to and perhaps I shall seek further advice from the Holy Spirit and the Word of God on this.

    On the second point, “per 1 Corinthians 6:9-11,” you have brought forth a fuller picture that I did not quite address in my comment. A key understanding is Paul’s point that this is what some of you WERE. Paul is reminding them that being in Christ, we now define ourselves by Christ and not by our “natural” ways. We are born a new creature all old things have past away. This is our struggle per sanctification. Being still in flesh, the flesh and our old ways still try to cling to us and pull us down. But, remember we have come to Christ and he delivered us and CONTINUES to deliver us. We are back to the question of choice between Christ and sin, which is it? Is ours a true salvation or false one? What do we truly love? Who is our master, sin or Christ? Paul is reminding them that sin leads to death but Christ to life.

    One great thing about the Holy Bible is that everything we deal with today related to faith, sin and salvation also existed back then too– false believers, temptation, struggles in sin, etc… But, we have victory in Christ for He has victory over sin. Our trouble mounts when we force ourselves to believe that we must go forth and win the battle with sin by our own hands. Instead, let us do like the woman in Luke who SOUGHT and REACHED OUT and touched the hem of Jesus’ garment and was healed!

    As for the third point, the “Book of Life” versus the “Lamb’s Book of Life,” I believe this to be the same book. My point is that book—Book of Life—is given over to Jesus. Thus, it becomes the Lamb’s Book of Life. The other books are books of deeds. So, if our name isn’t written in the Book of Life, then God turns to the books which record our deeds to render His judgment. The key point here is that all those judged by the Book of Life receives LIFE! ALL those judged by the books of deeds receives DEATH.

    So, books upon books on our deeds standing as our testimony cannot in the least redeem us (millions of lines of works and thoughts equate to nothing worthy before God). But, contrast that with just the simple appearance of our name in the Lamb’s book of Life is all that is necessary for eternal life. This is truly beautiful and humbling. To know one’s salvation is to know that Christ has truly done it all on the cross and to know that He did this willingly because of His perfect redeeming love for us and His perfect love and obedience to God the Father!

  35. Margo - April 21, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    We love Christ and our salvation is true..but, by nature we are indeed sinners. We sin everyday in action, deed and/or thought. If we have broken one of the Commandments, we’ve broken them all. We must not like / love our sin. In Romans 7, Paul tells us about himself hating sin but, his struggle with the flesh. His heart desires to do what is right but, his flesh tells another story. He sins but, is not in love with sinning. He was human.

    If once we are saved and our names are recorded into the Lamb’s Book of Life and sealed by the Holy Spirit and can never be blotted out… yet, the Word of God speaks of names being blotted out of the Book of Life, my guess is these are two separate books. If a person dies as a believer his name is retained in the book of life, if he dies unsaved he is blotted out. Ps. 69:28: “Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and not be written with the righteous.”

  36. Wayne Cook - May 7, 2012 at 11:00 pm

    If you are correct about your assumptions, this would mean a majority of this worlds, christian’s would be condemned to Hell. The reason I say this, is due to the fact that even a mere ” thought ” of the above would be considered sin. Therefore, almost everyone has probably had a really bad dispute with their spouse and ” thought ” about inappropriate things. According to God, the thought alone would make you as guilty as actually committing the sin. Also, consider the divorce rate. I am to the understanding that, when you are bonded in marriage, it is until death do you part. Christians throughout the world unfortunately resort to divorce, due to not being able to find a solution to their problems. They do not put their marriage in the hands of God. Well, according to what I understand, Jesus Christ is against divorce. Therefore, when a person thinks they are getting a divorce, they really are not. They are united until death. What point I am trying to get across is that, if you remarry, and have intercourse with your ” current spouse ” you are committing adultery in the eyes of Jesus Christ and God our Father. If our God was not the least bit merciful, we would all be condemned to Hell. We are not perfect and, I can guarantee you, the majority of christian’s around the world do not know all the depths and details of the bible. If someone did enough research, they could find a way to convict and condemn each and every one of us, with no return. How would God be merciful if your statements and understandings were true? I came across some scriptures:

    Ephesians 2:4 “God is rich in mercy.”

    Romans 2:4 “can’t you see that he has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.’

    Psalm 136:2 “O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.”

    This is definitely something to consider.

    Thank you.

  37. Margo - May 8, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Wayne Cook ~ Which version of the Bible did you retrieve those passages of scripture? Per Romans 2:4.. it reads “Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?” (KJV).. But, in order to read it contextually, we must read a line or two before and perhaps, one or two after.. or else it sets the stage for gross misinterpretation.

    Fact is, its Gods Divine Plan of Salvation and He does all the saving. The Precious Blood of Jesus Christ covers the sins of all who believe on Him (only) for their Salvation and forgiveness of sins. Our works are all filth as rags in the eyes of God.

    We did nothing to gain Salvation so, we can do nothing to lose it. Per those of whom have married and divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarried another, if those people are saved, their sin of adultery is covered in the Blood.

    Blessings.

  38. Lydia - May 9, 2012 at 2:18 am

    Margo & Wayne Cook:

    What part of [divorcing and marrying again = adultery] is not understood in the verses below? In the last reference, Jesus does not tell the woman to go and continue to commit adultery – but exactly the opposite – which means that after He saved her ONCE from being stoned to death, she should not continue in her sin (because maybe He wouldn’t be around the next time to save her and then she would receive what is due to her – death).

    Mike, in his article point 2 “Sinning Willfully After Receiving the Knowledge of the Truth”, showed references about continuing to sin KNOWINGLY and that that kind of sin is NOT covered by Jesus’ blood.

    Also, DIVORCING for any other reason except adultery is NOT FORBIDDEN. The thing that is FORBIDDEN in those other situations is the REMARRIAGE. Remarriage in those situations would become ADULTERY. (I am not so sure that remarriage AFTER adultery is permitted – but I’d rather not remarry even in that situation – just to be on the safe side.)

    Take again a look at Mike’s article and his point 4: “22 Specific Sins That Could Keep You Out of Heaven” – which specifically mentions adultery as one of the sins that would keep us out of heaven.

    We should watch out and not be complacent in our sins, thinking we will be saved if we knowingly sin because we claim Jesus as our Savior (giving only lip service while continuing to enjoy life in sin). Take a good look at previous examples of “salvation”: Only Noah and his family were saved out of the whole human race, and only Lot and his daughters were saved out of 2 whole cities. And anyone that does not walk a strait and narrow path will not get in.
    Matthew 7:14 Because STRAIT/SMALL is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leads unto life, and only a FEW find it.
    See, only a FEW will find the way. That was JESUS speaking. What’s so hard to understand – and why CONTRADICT Jesus?

    So, are billions of people (past, present and future) who claim Jesus is their Savior, “only a FEW”? I, personally, would watch my every spiritual step and not look for ways to justify our KNOWING sin – but to REPENT IMMEDIATELY and STOP COMMITTING that sin (whatever it might be).
    ——————
    Matthew 5:32
    But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of ADULTERY, and anyone who marries a divorced woman COMMITS ADULTERY.
    Matthew 19:9
    I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman COMMITS ADULTERY.’

    Mark 7:21-23
    For it is from within, OUT OF PERSON’S HEART, that EVIL THOUGHTS COME – sexual immorality, theft, murder, ADULTERY, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.’
    Mark 10:10-12
    When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman COMMITS ADULTERY against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she COMMITS ADULTERY.’

    Luke 16:18
    ‘Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman COMMITS ADULTERY, and the man who marries a divorced woman COMMITS ADULTERY.
    Luke 16:18
    ‘Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman COMMITS ADULTERY, and the man who marries a divorced woman COMMITS ADULTERY.
    Luke 18:20
    You know the commandments: “You SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.” ’

    John 8:11
    (This was Jesus’ answer to the woman caught in adultery.)
    …‘Then neither do I condemn you,’ Jesus declared. ‘Go now and LEAVE YOUR LIFE OF SIN.’

  39. Lydia - May 9, 2012 at 2:31 am

    To Mike, who wrote the article:

    Can you shed any light on those of us who have sinned WILLFULLY/KNOWINGLY after our salvation, but have repented? Any comforting words?

  40. Beth - May 9, 2012 at 11:11 pm

    We have all sinned willfully. Satan loves to accuse, and even after earnest repentence, keep bringing things back up. And what got me past that was dwelling on who Jesus is. Not just that He is grace giving, but the He is Sovereign, Just, Lord, Always Was and Always Will Be…… Meditating on how He worked in the lives of Ruth, Esther, Elijah, Joseph…this both brought me to real repentence which meant I was so very sorry because I could see more and more how precious Jesus is. I had hurt Him.

    When I am not sorry, I tend to be too big for my own britches, thinking I am so great. And then I give room for Satan to play into whatever my unwise tendencies are. Satan works, as Tim Keller has said, in vibration with our own voice. He plays on the sin tendencies already in us.

    I was abandoned and my ex committed adultery, and abondoned the faith. Very extreme. However, that does not mean I did not have my own sin in the marriage, for which I have repented. I prayed angry prayers about my ex, which is okay, because you have to be real. But over time, I figured if I prayed my husband would get what he deserved, well, I would have some seriously terrible things coming to me as well. God will deal with my ex. He will judge. I still get angry, but I am able to pray that he comes back to Jesus if that is possible. And I really mean what I pray. You cannot fool God!

    For myself, I will likely never date or seek to remarry, though I am supposedly one of those people who biblically could. I have had too many crazy conversations with believers who left spouses for reasons that made iittle sense, and some are on 2nd and even 3rd marriages. How does that kind of life fit with Jesus of the Bible?

    We all tend to rationalize our sin, and take parts of the bible and work it to our favor. And that goes on big time with most people who leave their spouses.

    God has been teaching me to be a more loving, careful thinking and acting person. I am working out my salvation with fear and trembing. Not a terrible fear and trembling, but with a sense of awe and wonder that God has forgiven me my part in the marriage where I screwed up, that He has forgiven me period, and that one day I get to sit at his feet.

    We talk about losing our salvation, but I do not want to lose being with Jesus. Heaven is not heaven without Him.

  41. Lydia - May 10, 2012 at 1:17 am

    Thanks Beth for sharing. You convey in writing that you have found your peace.

    I must share something I heard from a few “Christian” believers – women, in this case. All of them were married and divorced at least 2 (and some more) times. All of them said that GOD told them that the man they were marrying is the right man to be their husband. When they got the divorced, it was also because GOD “told” them the guy was not the right choice.
    I was new to the faith at the time, and was wondering how God could be telling them these conflicting things, so I studied the subject by myself and came to my own conclusions which I posted above.

    Again, thanks for sharing.

  42. Margo - May 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    James~ So, you’re saying that satan has powers in the realm of sin than God has in the realm of saving? No way!!! God saves those of whom turn to Him in belief. We don’t save ourselves.. and when God saves us, we are saved.. PERIOD! We cannot ‘lose’ our salvation because it and all that it entails.. the changes God makes in us and the position He puts us in.. is all sealed by the Holy Spirit. So, to think otherwise.. much less, say otherwise is false. To twist scripture or in anyway misinterpret the Word of God to “support” (as it were) the position of our Salvation being lost, is pure HERESY.

    Beth~ thank you for sharing. You’re words were a huge blessing! 🙂

  43. Beth - May 10, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Self Salvation. I wonder if a great many church goers are trying hard, following “the rules” as best they can on their own efforts, and actually not in relationship with Jesus. He told the thief on the cross next to Him that he was joining Jesus in Paradise. The believing thief that is. That thief surely did not rate heaven on his efforts to do good!

    There are many things we will not be sure of until we are face to face with Christ. But we can be sure that His love is greater than we can imagine, and He is not sitting with a sin rating system calling out “Woa that was a 10!” We will be surprised some day to realize that it is the things that to us seem so small that may infact be very serious to God. And the things we are sure are deal breakers with salvation that God does forgive. Shall anything separate us from the love of God? He does know His sheep and His sheep hear His voice.

    God’s Word is living and active, and that He is faithful to those who love HIm. We that love Jesus can rest in that. It is okay to have a million questions. It is okay to be ticked at times that some people in the world are so evil in their behavior. But we must always come back to the fact that Jesus’ sacrifice once for and all breaks apart all the little rules we think keep Him away from us. We must come back to focus on Who He is. And that in itself will answer a lot.

    Jesus got after the Pharisees for picking things apart. They missed the forest for the trees. They did not have their heads oriented towards God, just towards rules. We can quote miscellaneous scriptures all day long, but there is a greater over arching story of God’s unending love in the Bible. He loved rascals, those who did not seem to belong, those who had really screwed up, as well as those who obeyed. Ofcourse the rascals like Jacob suffered for some of the things they pulled, but God clearly loved them. So as I look at the greater over arching story of God’s Word, though I do not know why my husband turned on me and on God, I have to trust that whomever turns to God for real does not lose his salvation. We will have some surprises some day, because people we thought were believers He will tell to depart since He never knew them. But it is not for me to decide who has salvation and who does not. It is absolutely a gift from God He offers, and some people choose to work out their salvation for themselves, and some people take the gift.

  44. Lydia - May 12, 2012 at 1:09 am

    Margo,

    You just can’t have your cake and eat it, too. You either leave the life of sin and follow Jesus and serve God, or you continue making excuses and “enjoy” each sin as you KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY commit it.
    You cannot sit on 2 chairs: chair of holiness and chair of wickedness. And you cannot sit on the fence either.
    You have to make a choice for God, repent and leave the life of sin. And not only you, but all of us – I think that goes without saying.
    I think I already mentioned the fact that when the adulterous woman was brought to Jesus and in the end nobody threw a stone at her, that He told her that she should LEAVE her life of sin. He did not tell her: Go and continue to sin, I’ll be around the next time, too.
    And all those references brought up in this post regarding all kinds of sin that would NOT enter heaven (example: 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) are NOT written to non-believers but to a CHURCH full of believers. Paul was telling the “BELIEVERS” that they would not enter heaven if they continued with their life of sin.
    What does Paul say in 1 Cor. 5:9-11? “I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people – NOT AT ALL MEANING THE PEOPLE OF THIS WORLD WHO ARE IMMORAL, OR THE GREEDY AND SWINDLERS, OR IDOLATERS. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A BROTHER OR SISTER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. DO NOT EVEN EAT WITH SUCH PEOPLE.”|
    I think Paul is very clear. If we must not associate with those people, it means that WE, too, must not live like that, because WE would be those people that shouldn’t be associated with.

    I don’t know why it is so hard to understand that if we want to enter heaven, WE SHOULD LEAVE THE LIFE OF SIN and live as holy lives as we can – we MUST sacrifice our sinful pleasures for life in heaven. After all, didn’t Jesus SUFFER, SUFFER, SUFFER on the cross? If we are making excuses for our sins because we don’t want to give them up – aren’t we laughing in Jesus’ face? It would be like standing under the cross and saying “Great that you are hanging up there. Now I can go and sin some more while your blood is spilling out for my sin of choice”.

  45. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 10:34 am

    James~ Rejecting Salvation once we’ve been enlightened and tasted of the Heavenly Gift and made partakers of the Holy Ghost, etc.. and fall away from the faith, that is considered as throwing away our Salvation, giving it back.. renouncing God… which is not considered “losing” our Salvation (whooops, where’d my Salvation go?).. but, throwing in the towel where God and our faith is concerned. Giving up the faith, etc. Yes, I tend to agree with you per that. The Word of God speaks of those types.. just as it speaks of those of whom ‘think’ they’re saved and will be surprised when they are summonsed to the last resurrection. Many of those will be blatant unbelievers.. those who reject Jesus Christ. While many will be those of whom think they’re saved but, don’t really know God’s Divine Plan of Salvation as it is intended and they put a lot of clout in their own works to either (in their own minds) to ‘finish’ what Jesus Christ started on the Cross, as it were… or feel the need to do something to “maintain” their salvation because they fail to have unwavering belief, faith and trust in Jesus Christ ONLY.. but, its all about ‘Jesus + them = Salvation.’

    For some odd reason(s) they seem to think that once we become Born-Again Christians, we are to never ever sin again… and they even go as far as to try to make you and I think and believe they never sin… which is a lie from the pit. These people are hypocrites.. plainly and simply. And they will one day have the conversation with Jesus Christ which starts our “Lord Lord!” Sadly.

    Lydia~ Its not about anybody “having their cake and eating it too.” Respectfully. We are human-beings born into the sinful nature of Adam. There is a vast difference between Salvation and Consecration. When we are made Born-Again, we still have the old nature. We are still human. We will still sin… and anyone who says they are without sin, the truth is not in them and they make God a liar.
    Again, God does the saving and makes all the changes in us as He deems necessary. Salvation is one thing and Consecration is another. When God saves us, we are saved period! If we choose to allow the Holy Spirit to lead, guide and direct us in our walk with the Lord and we have the desire to get closer to Him, thats where Consecration comes in. Many Christians remain ‘baby-Christians’.. showing little to no Fruits of the Spirit.. but, that does not make them any less saved than those of whom seek to be closer to God and grow in their Faith and have some Fruits.

    In James 2.. its speaking of faith + works.. not for Salvation of the person claiming the Faith.. but, the potential and hopeful Salvation of the person in need. Can my Faith save that person? Not unless I show fruits of the Spirit (works).. meeting their human need. You see, all of the Faith/fruits of the Spirit stuff is not for God to see as proof of ones Salvation.. as He already know one is saved if indeed, one is saved. Its outward signs for man to see God in us. James 2:14-20 is speaking of a Christian being confronted by someone in need and the Christian not meeting that persons need. The chances of the Christians faith saving the needy person is dead.. because the Christian failed to show fruits of the spirit (or maybe that was the fruits of his/her spirit.. eeeeks!).. so, its hard for others to see Christians as truly who we claim, if we don’t show some outward signs.

    Salvation and our spiritual position happens instantaneously when we turn to Christ. All the other changes are a process over time. Personally, I am perfect spiritually because I’ve been made so. But, otherwise I am still a work in progress.

  46. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Also, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.. Paul is addressing a mixed crowd of believers and unbelievers. Again, the key word here is “unrighteous”.. not any of the listed sins. Why did Paul stop there and not list 30 more sins? He was using these as an example. We know there is no degree of sin positionally in the eyes of God. Sexual sin is sinning against ones own body just as gluttony is a sin against ones own body… and drunkenness. Verse 11 “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” Verse 11 Paul is speaking to the Christians.. reminding them that they too were @ a time, UNRIGHTEOUS.. but, they were washed, etc.

    You see, we cannot afford to look down on.. and point our fingers at those of whom commit certain sins that we may feel are unfathomable.. as we have our own sins that hopefully God is dealing with. All sins are bad. And we need not think of ourselves superior over anyone else. We were just guilty hell-deserving souls prior to turning to Jesus Christ and were saved. It was nothing we did.. but, everything Jesus did for us.

    The Born-Again Christian is no longer under condemnation. Their sins are.

    Thank you Heavenly Father… thank you Jesus!!!

  47. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 11:44 am

    One more thing : Lydia, you seem to be adding lots of works to what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross @ Calvary and beyond… saying that we must leave our life of sin in order to enter Heaven? Thats inaccurate, dear. That puts you in the drivers seat and Christ in the back seat. Who is running the show, you or Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ died for us while we were yet, sinners… and saved those sinners who turned to Him. A saved sinner.. who would-a thunk? We need not do anything to be saved but, repent (have a change of mind toward ourselves, God and sin) and turn toward Jesus Christ in belief through Faith. We don’t agree to turn over a new leaf… or agree to never sin again.. or “repent for our sins”.. in order to be saved. And when we are saved, we know we are because God did it. We have the BLESSED ASSURANCE of our Salvation. There is no waiting until we pass away in order to ‘really know’ if we are truly saved or not… however, sadly there are many of whom live like that.. and will die like that. Those of whom choose to live under the curse of the Law with be judged by the Law. We all know what that means, yes?

    In 1 Corinthians 5:9 the individual in question was not saved.

  48. Lydia - May 12, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Margo,

    What about 1 Cor. 5:9-11? Doesn’t that talk about people that are so-called believers? Paul is NOT telling us NOT to seek out the “sinners” that have NOT heard the gospel yet. He is telling us to get away from those calling themselves Christians who are living a life of sin. By your explanation, we have to WAIT ON GOD to do the work in us. Yes, He shines the light on our sin (Gods’ work) – but we are the ones that have a choice to either stop doing that sin or turn our back on God and continue in the sin.

    Also, you talk of Salvation and Consecration. If we do not live a consecrated life, how do we get to heaven exactly?
    WE have to REPENT of the sin GOD has shown us (or, “done his work in us”) and go on to the next sin and deal with it. I know we won’t be able to get rid of all of our sin – I am well aware of that. But I am also aware that as a believer I have responsibility also, and that is to stop sinning WILLFULLY and KNOWINGLY. We are IN A PARTNERSHIP with God. And that is what I am talking about: SINNING WILLFULLY and KNOWINGLY – making a CHOICE TO SIN when God is showing you that you shouldn’t.

    Paul stopped with that list of sins because they are the most prominent. He knew, and I do not contradict him OR YOU, that we are work in progress – and that the other sins will be revealed to a true believer who wants to be consecrated to God and seeks TO KNOW what his sins are so he can repent and go forward.

    We should be continually “washing our robes” – Rev. 22:14-15 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may GO THROUGH THE GATES INTO the city. OUTSIDE are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”

    So are we to continue checking our horoscopes, fornicate/commit adultery, murder/abort, bow down to Mammon, and lie – and still get to heaven?

    Again, I am talking about sinning WILLFULLY and KNOWINGLY — AFTER God has “done His work in us” by shining the light on our specific sin.

    1 John 3:6 NO ONE WHO LIVES IN HIM KEEPS ON SINNING. NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN has either seen Him or known Him.
    1 John 3:9 NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD WILL CONTINUE TO SIN, because God’s seed remains in them; THEY CANNOT GO ON SINNING, because they have been born of God.
    1 John 5:18 We know that ANYONE BORN OF GOD DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SIN; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

    I these 3 verses I see that we have a choice – WE HAVE A CHOICE – because John says in the first verse above that anyone who lives in Christ DOES NOT KEEP ON sinning. That means that there should be some kind of a total break between the sinner and his sin.
    In the second verse he says a believer WILL NOT CONTINUE to sin and that he CANNOT GO ON (is unable) sinning. No willful sinning.
    In the 3rd verse he says that a true believer DOES NOT CONTINUE to sin. Does not want to continue in sin.

    To me it’s quite clear that, sure God does His part, but we also have to do our part. Instead of making excuses for our sinful ways, we should go into battle and “kill” our sins. Or should we just lay back passively and wait like the 5 virgins that didn’t care so much that they didn’t have enough oil – and were not allowed in to the wedding feast?

    You said “And we need not think of ourselves superior over anyone else.” I sure hope you didn’t think I thought that of myself, because I think I am just a worm – if not for Jesus. I know that I am worth more in His eyes than I am in my own – and THAT IS WHY I try to close the door on each sin as it is shown to me. Sometimes it’s easy, and sometimes I have to put on the full armor and go into a long battle until I succeed – with His help, of course. Jesus did not say it would be easy – and He said that only a FEW will find the way to heaven. That makes me REALLY NOT WANT make excuses for my sins.

  49. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Lydia~ 1 Corinthians 5:9-11.. Yes, “so-called” is correct. Perhaps an individual among believers who committed the sin of marrying his own step-mother which was a commonality in Corinth and unfathomable among Gentiles. The question is : was this individual saved or not?

    Verse 5 “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit *may be saved* in the day of the Lord Jesus” tells me that he was not saved. How does an already saved person get saved? Does that make sense?

    As much as I love Paul and his writings, he was far from perfect per the flesh. IMO, per his idea of ostracizing anyone.. brethren or not.. from the fellowship within the church seems that it very well could do more harm than good.. and perhaps, make himself seem hypocritical in the process. Paul was just a man.. a sinner (the Chief of Sinners) saved by Grace.

    This is Paul speaking of himself, post-conversion :

    Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Sometimes, when certain “Christians” feel they have been given the liberty to judge others, they do it in a most wrongful manner.. thinking they are somehow just a little higher on the food-chain than everyone else. Lots use certain (misinterpreted) “clobber-scriptures” to run Homosexual people into the ground. Frankly, I feel its best to be loving and em-bracingly accepting toward others no matter what.. in so to have a much better chance of winning others to Jesus Christ in lieu of turning the totally and completely off to God and Christianity. Jesus dined with ‘sinners’… so does Margo.

  50. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    Also, none of what you mention keeps anyone out of Heaven… only one thing : rejecting Gods Gift of Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Post-conversion, sin wears and tears away at our rewards.. not our Salvation.

    Your 1 John scriptures are misinterpreted. The Bible ‘reads’ lots of things it does is not actually ‘saying.’

    These passages of scripture speak directly to the Christian :

    1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    10 “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

    Lydia, We sin everyday in deed, thought and/or action.

    Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

  51. Lydia - May 12, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Margo,

    Well, Jesus dined with sinners, Margo dines with sinners and if you had read my second sentence (“Paul is NOT telling us NOT to seek out the “sinners” that have NOT heard the gospel yet.”) you would have guessed that I, too, probably dine with sinners. That is not the self-righteous point!

    Yes Paul was the “chief of sinners” but he also said in Romans 6:1-2: “What shall we say, then? SHALL WE GO ON SINNING, so that grace may increase? BY NO MEANS! We are those who have died to sin; HOW CAN WE LIVE IN IT ANY LONGER?” (In addition to the 1John 3 and 5 verses I already mentioned previously – and John was a really gentle man.)

    On the other hand, Paul tells us (I repeat myself) in 1 Cor. 5:9-11 YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A BROTHER OR SISTER… And the word “claims” DID NOT escape me.
    The problem is that those “Claimers” are SURE that they are SAVED yet they are committing adultery, marrying and divorcing and remarrying, they worship Mammon and some even preach about Mammon on TV. As long as you give them, they will tell you that you can live as sinfully as you want and that it is covered by Jesus’ blood. Mammon is more appealing than talking about sin these days. In fact, we should do everything not to upset a potential Mammon-giver and if he is living in sin, we should just pat him on the head and say “It’s all taken care of by Jesus”. 50-60 yrs. ago, and before that, pastors talked about sin and its consequences. Today, nothing. That is why today OPEN sin pushed IN THE FACE of others is accepted in almost all churches. And that is why there are almost no morals anymore in the Christian world. There are only a small number that are “working out” their salvation “with trembling” (Philippians 2:12)

    Wherever you turn, we are exhorted, EVEN BY JESUS, not to continue living in sin – in hundreds of verses, if not in even more. So, are you more knowledgeable than Jesus or something? If Jesus says that we should not continue our life of sin, than I guess you just don’t value his words and teachings much – or Him.

    I am just sick and tired of people justifying their sin and telling others that it is OK to continue sinning, and by doing so, they trample all over Jesus’ precious blood.

    I really apologize if I have offended you in any way.

    • Christine - November 12, 2017 at 4:32 pm

      I’ve been reading all these posts and have come to this conclusion. I was a sinner who was going to die. I heard as a child about YESUHA my whole life. I believed he existed, but could not understand HIM fully, until I saw just how sinful I was and could not find happiness. Everyone let me down, and nothing filled the void. UNTIL.. I saw YESHUA’S love for me. Once I did, I knew I needed HIM, more than my life. I repented, and believed HE loved me and forgave me. Yet with life, as hard as it is… I kept falling into stupid little sins, repenting, keep going, really failed, repented, and then guilt controlled me.. until… I finally, admitted, that I could not keep from sinning alone. I then, repented for every sin I could ever think of.. and that took some time! So finally, I have come to the conclusion, that YESHUA is the only way to make heaven. I cannot earn it, I cannot Keep from sinning on my own, and I have found.. that it is a ongoing battle until I die, or YESHUA returns. All I can do is… give my life completely to HIM, trust that HE, will do what HE said, HE would do. Yet, I know that if, I willfully keep sinning, I’m not valuing HIS free gift of salvation and HIS salvation hasn’t done anything for me. We all accidentally sin little sins, and the big ones… can at any moment of passion.. and pain.. cause us to fall onto them easily. Then there are those big sins that we can commit and knowingly excuse and contemplate before we do them. Now… if, we are a Christian for real.. GOD will at the greatest sin, say no that is wrong, if you don’t listen, there will be great consequences. What really matters to me.. is have I really given my life completely to YESHUA? When I sin accidental, do I repent quickly? When I sin in the heat of a moment and then realize I just sinned, do I repent quickly? Yes, quickly. The big sin, The one chosen deliberately.. What then? That one would scare me! But, GOD is very merciful and patient, so.. I believe if one really gets serious with GOD, and HE knows.. He will forgive. But we walk on a very tight rope.. We need to check our lives daily, out with GOD!! One can chose to never accept YESHUA, and not go to heaven. One can put their trust in HIM, listen to HIM, carefully and watch their steps closely, repent quickly and run… as fast as possibly from the blatant fleshly sins as we can, and run straight back into our FATHERS arms for comfort, protection, and guidance and forgiveness. Or we can decide to earn our own way, and do good works, to get into heaven without HIM, and get our names blotted out. 1. Never give HIM a chance. 2. Repent, Know HIM, fail, repent, follow closely, with every bit of determination and strength, we have, never give up, and end up over the finish line. 3. Do it our way, and some what, repent, accept HIS gift, but decide latter that we think we know better how to accomplish salvation for ourselves, then HIM, and decide to never let HIM tell us what, where, when, why, or how to do it, and then miss out! That only leave us with one choice! YESHUA, the narrow way.

  52. Lydia - May 12, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Margo,

    Sorry, I didn’t see the second part of your answer. With all that I have written, do I give you the impression in some way that I think I am without sin???????

    Post-conversion sin has nothing to do with our rewards. That’s where the “works” that James talks about come in. If we work for God in any way and/or serve others in his name – the more we do, the larger the reward. It has nothing to do with post-conversion sin.

    And yes, we sin everyday – but we should try to cut down on our sinning as much as possible. If we gossip, we should bite our tongue. If we are fornicating/watching porno/committing adultry – we should stop. If we are control freaks, we should get help to learn how to let go. If we think that taking something from our workplace that we need – because everybody else is doing it – we should stop because it is not ours to take. If we promise something and don’t keep the promise, we should either not promise anything anymore or start keeping our promises…and so on. We CAN and are ABLE to give up our pet sins – that is what is meant when they say we should grow in our walk with Christ. We should recognize our sin and deal with it.

    I don’t live in your country, so the last sentence about Egypt is lost on me.

    Again, I apologize for any offense.

  53. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Lydia~ You haven’t offended me.. but, my guess is that you should be more concerned with offending God. I am in no way trying to justify my sins… but, I am in reality and know that I still sin.. as do you. Has nothing to do with living in sin or any of that.. and everything to do with the fact that we are human-beings with a human nature. Our Salvation has nothing to do with what we do or don’t do. Its all about what God has done for us. Please don’t deny the Power in the Blood of Jesus Christ. When God saves us, we are saved! You seem to think satan is more powerful than God.. that he has some sin that trumps what Christ did for us on the Cross. Not so! You seem to be in denial where sin is concerned and seemingly are unaware as to how Salvation works. I can tell that you’re Assembly of God or Pentecostal.. perhaps, Oneness or Holiness? All of which, teach things that are not necessarily Biblical truths.

    Personally, I was raised Assembly of God and then Southern Baptist. I’ve had to learn to read Gods Word for myself and allow the Holy Spirit to bring my unto knowledge and understanding…. throwing lots of what I was taught, out the window. Arminianism vs Calvinism… both are not completely correct. I follow neither doctrine.

    I got exactly what you said.. and I have complete awareness of people, saved and unsaved alike.. sin daily… and I dine with and have fellowship with both. People know I’m a Christian.. so, if I choose to not have anything to do with them because of some sin they may have in their lives, they pick up on the hypocrisy in that act. And I am no hypocrite.

    How many times have you written to the Benny Henns.. the Joel Osteens.. the John Hagees.. The Joyce Meyers.. the Paul Crouchs of the world? They’re the ones leading others in the wrong direction. They’re wolves in sheeps clothing.. hypocrites and heretics. And the list goes on and on. More of these types than not, I think. Its terrible!

    No, dear.. its not about justifying any sins… and all about knowing what Jesus Christ did for us and who we are in Him.

  54. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Per Egypt = play on words. The Nile River in Egypt? Denial is not just a river in Egypt? I was conveying to you that I sincerely believe that you are in denial about your own Salvation and your own sins.

    Please, never allow anyone to tell you that once you become a Christian you never sin.. thats a lie of the devil. You’re a Christian and you are only still very human.

    Blessings.

  55. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Lydia~ I have no “pet-sins”… I am a human being who lives her life one day at a time. I don’t like sin.. but, I still do it. I confess them to the Lord.. and I know I am forgiven. I am not about walking on rice-paper. I am not religious.. just a poor sinner saved by Grace. Constantly being mindful of sin and/or sinning is living under the curse of the Law. I choose to live under Grace. Those of whom constantly concerned with sinning are in bondage. I choose FREEDOM IN CHRIST.

  56. Lydia - May 12, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Margo,

    1. How can I offend God if I stop swearing, stealing, or stop doing any other sin mentioned in the Bible?

    2. Again I ask – Did I give you any reason to believe that I think that I don’t sin? Exactly the opposite is true!

    3. I don’t think that satan is more powerful than God – I KNOW that he is only a created being and that God is the creator of that being.

    4. As you have been wrong about everything else about me, I can tell you that I am not Assembly of God, Pentecostal. Oneness or Holiness. I am Messianic Jew (i.e. Jew that believes Jesus is the promised Messiah).

    5. You say: “Please, never allow anyone to tell you that once you become a Christian you never sin.. thats a lie of the devil. You’re a Christian and you are only still very human.” Here, too, you are wrong about me. Did you read anything I wrote????
    I hope you will read the following sentence and take it in:
    I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER claimed that once you become a Christian you never sin – on the contrary, I said we should deal with our sin and not continue living KNOWINGLY in our sin.

    6. I am in no denial about my sins – which are many and I try to overcome each one of them as I go along.

    7. You, on the other hand, seem TO ME to be in denial that we should be doing something about our “post-conversion” sins.

    So, you continue in your sins if that is what you think God wants, but I will continue to try to overcome my sins while pleading with God, on my face, to help me to overcome. I will really try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

  57. Lydia - May 12, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Margo,

    FREEDOM IN CHRIST does not mean that you are free to sin and that if you have not repented of that sin, everything is going to be OK.

    FREEDOM IN CHRIST means that we are FREE TOO CHOOSE NOT TO SIN – since, before we came to Christ, we did not have that freedom, we just wallowed in sin without any hope – we were in satan’s grip. Jesus broke that grip now we have FREEDOM NOT TO SIN – we have FREEDOM TO CHOSE NOT TO SIN.

  58. Saved - May 12, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    Lydia,

    I want to think you for taking the Bible in whole and not just a few scriptures. I don’t like arguing about what the Word says because people take it out of context to try to justify what they’re doing is ok. From my study of Gods Word you are on the right track. Don’t let someone else try to convince for any other way. Always let God lead you in your actions and trust in him. Really enjoyed your comments. God Bless

  59. Margo - May 12, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Lydia~ Freedom in Christ is to know that we live our lives knowing who we are in Christ and not having to make sure all of our “I’s” are dotted and our “T’s” are crossed. Not being constantly burdened as to whether we sinned today and if we are prayed-through enough as to be pleasing in the eyes of God.

    Per offending God : is to.. once we have experienced the second-birth, have the feeling of fear and guilt about sins we may commit. Always being so concerned that it makes us into ‘religious drone-puppets’ and miserable. We are constantly weighing out everything we say and do.. then, second-guessing ourselves… and ultimately, our own Salvation. Also, misinterpreting the Word of God.. making others realize the complicated-ness of Gods Divine Plan of Salvation… where in all actuality, its not complicated at all. Some people complicate a very simple plan.

    As far as freedom of choice to either sin or not : we have always had that. Some people, even though they are lost, live by a strict moral compass. I’ve known a few people who lived clean lives.. never smoked, drank, cursed, fornicated, etc… but, were still going to split Hell wide-open.

    Sin is not what sends a person to Hell. They send themselves to Hell by rejecting Jesus Christ.. which it the ultimate and unforgivable sin, I suppose (I stand corrected).

    And yes, we are to wait on God. He makes all the changes in us that He deems necessary. Its not up to us to change.. but, be willing to be changed by God.
    I have not been all that wrong about yourself. Messianic Jew.. wonderful. But, you still cannot shed the old Jewish Law, obviously. You believe in Christ at the Messiah.. but, your trust seems to be in yourself a great deal.
    Just an observation.

    My trust is fully in Christ.. only. I drop the ball way too much for me.. and most likely, for the Lord, as well.

    Seems you are fessing-up the fact that you still sin, Lydia. But, in your first few posts, you displayed an air of piety, leading to the falsehood of one losing ones Salvation.. seem to be in so many words, a promoter of Lordship Salvation… as to say that we must make Jesus Christ Lord of our life in order to be saved. Where in as we don’t ‘make’ Jesus Christ anything.. as He is already Lord.. and when we are saved, He is our Lord.

    Again, I am not religious.. don’t do religion… and do not live under the curse of the Law. I suppose that old habits are sometime difficult to break, yes?

    Think about this : If Gods ‘Gift’ of Grace is a gift, we cannot work for it or in any way earn it. Its a Gift. So, are we really indebted to Christ? Do we owe Him anything for the Gift He has offered us and we have accepted? No.

    When we do works and good deeds, as Christians… it is suppose to be out of gratitude for what God has done for us. Not out of debt.

    We obey God out of our love for Him.. not because we need to maintain our Salvation.

  60. James - May 12, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    Margo – your comment:

    ‘Frankly, I feel its best to be loving and embracingly accepting toward others no matter what…’

    Our feelings are what get us to compromise the Word of God and I’m not sure what you mean by ‘no matter what’. God commands us through His Word and we are to obey what He says, not how we feel. You aren’t alone.

    I agree that we should always love and embrace others but always be about our Father’s business which is soul-winning. We show our love to others by telling them about Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. Others we have to save through fear, i.e.

    Jude 1:23

    “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.”

    I hope this helps.

  61. Lydia - May 13, 2012 at 3:51 am

    Margo,

    1. “Sin is not what sends a person to Hell. They send themselves to Hell by rejecting Jesus Christ…which it the ultimate and unforgivable sin, I suppose (I stand corrected).”

    You always contradict yourself. You say that people send themselves to hell and not their sin. In the next sentence you say that sin (unforgivable SIN) is what sends them to hell. By your own words you say SIN is what sends a person to hell.
    Yes, rejecting Jesus is the unforgivable sin because you would have no mercy before His Father on the Judgment Day. You would have no blotting out of your sins.
    But also, all KNOWN, unrepentant sin will send you to hell. As I said, be my guest if you are so sure of your views.
    Jesus said that ONLY A FEW will get to heaven. So, who is it going to be? The one who KNOWS he is sinning and does nothing about it, or the one who recognizes his sin, repents, asks for forgiveness and his sin is blotted out so there is no record of his sin anymore, anywhere? If you don’t repent of your sin, it WILL be SHOWN to you on the Judgment Day – together with your unrepentant PRIDE. If you repent, it will be blotted out as if it never was. (Obviously, when I say “you” – I mean all of us and not you personally.)
    I would say that the sin of PRIDE is also unforgivable sin. Look what it has done to Satan! He was thrown OUT of heaven for his SIN of pride. So, it IS S-I-N (UNREPENTANT sin) that will keep you out of heaven!!!

    2. “It’s not up to us to change…but, be willing to be changed by God.”
    And what if you’re NOT WILLING to change and want to hang on to your sin, and interpret the scripture to fit your sinful state – where does that leave you? In heaven or hell?

    3. “…but, your trust seems to be in yourself a great deal.”
    Obviously you have a problem of understanding what you are reading. I trust in myself as much as Paul, the disciples, the prophets or any other person in the Bible who did – or tried to do – God’s will. All of them felt unworthy – and how much more do I feel so – since I am so far below their level. I only trust that God will forgive me when I repent and that he will blot out my sin when I do so. Not in myself.

    4. As for me being a Messianic Jew – I know EXACTLY what Jesus came to fulfill and what laws.
    Mat. 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER, NOT THE LEAST STROKE OF A PEN, WILL BY ANY MEANS DISAPPEAR FROM THE LAW UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED.

    So, to me it seems that the whole law stands until Jesus comes back. That’s what JESUS said – am I to contradict Him??? The law stands like a mirror to us, to show us when we are sinning, so that we can repent and ask for forgiveness. I don’t “trust in myself” but in the Word of God and what it is SHOWING me.

    5. Mat. 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so YOU MUST BE CAREFUL TO DO EVERYTHING THEY TELL YOU. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    Well, this for me is very plain. Jesus is telling even his DISCIPLES to do everything that the religious leaders of that time told them to do. And all they knew was the OT. Obeying God’s commandments, and repenting when we fall short, has nothing to do with my being Jewish. JESUS told us to OBEY – UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR.

    6. Rom 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For THE MIND THAT IS SET ON THE FLESH IS HOSTILE TO GOD, for it DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW; indeed, it cannot. THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.

    I am not second-guessing myself – I have the Bible to prove me right OR wrong – and I don’t argue with God’s word. It says that if we DO NOT SUBMIT to God’s LAW, we are HOSTILE to God. Christians that do not repent of their sin (that do not submit to God’s Law) and move on, live in the flesh and are HOSTILE to God and CANNOT PLEASE HIM – Jesus or no Jesus.
    Setting one’s mind on the Spirit, on the other hand, means you are willing to listen to the Spirit when he shines a light on your sin and are WILLING to repent – not fight God’s word and interpret it to fit your sin.

    7. Ezekiel 3:20 Again, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS PERSON TURNS FROM THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND DOES EVIL…THEY WILL DIE. Since you did not warn them, THEY WILL DIE FOR THEIR SIN. THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS THAT PERSON DID WILL NOT BE REMEMBERED, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

    We become “righteous” through Jesus, but if we turn from our righteousness, it’s as if we were never righteous – never new Jesus. God does not change – only people do. His Word was, is and will be forever.
    And yes, I quote from the OT because JESUS quoted from the OT, too. When he was on this earth, NT didn’t even exist.

    8. “Seems you are fessing-up the fact that you still sin, Lydia. But, in your first few posts, you displayed an air of piety, leading to the falsehood of one losing ones Salvation…”

    Excuse me!!!! What air of piety? I always claimed that I was a sinner in need of repentance and forgiveness. Wow, you really don’t understand what you’re reading – so no wonder you don’t understand what’s written in the Bible. Or do you read the Bible at all?????

    9. “So, are we really indebted to Christ? Do we owe Him anything for the Gift He has offered us and we have accepted? No.”
    Excuse me, once again!!! YES, we are indebted to Christ. Christ DID NOT OFFER us any gift. HIS FATHER offered us the GIFT. Christ OBEYED his Father – as we should do, too. Christ came to give us an example as to how we should live – and it is LIVING IN OBEDIENCE to God’s law. Christ TAUGHT God’s LAW. Christ did not HAVE TO go to the cross; he did it out of love for his Father and for us. We are INDEBTED to his OBEDIENCE to his Father and should be on our knees and on our faces repenting and asking his forgiveness.

    10. “When we do works and good deeds, as Christians… it is suppose to be out of gratitude for what God has done for us. Not out of debt.”
    You seem to be confusing “works” and “sin”. We should be doing our “works” out of gratitude. Should we continue to sin KNOWINGLY also out of gratitude?

    11. “We obey God out of our love for Him…not because we need to maintain our Salvation.”
    And yet, it is written that we should WORK OUT our salvation WITH FEAR and TREMBLING.
    I don’t know what Bible you’re reading.

  62. Lydia - May 13, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Margo,

    Funny how you never answer the pointed or specific questions I put before you. I guess they are uncomfortable for you and you don’t have an answer to them.
    You don’t understand what you read and turn my words completely around. Are you for real?
    It seems that you read your Bible the same way (if you do) – picking and choosing the verses that are suitable for pacifying your conscience when you know you’re doing something against God’s will – turning the words completely around to suit your situation.
    Let’s agree to disagree and leave it be, because I just don’t want to go around in circles and don’t want to keep repeating myself.

  63. Margo - May 13, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    Lydia~ Excuse me for being lazy and not erasing something and starting over. I always contradict myself? I should know to walk a thin line when dealing with the likes of you. Whats next, going to start ripping away at my grammar? haha!

    Ok, Lydia… this is especially for you : People send themselves to Hell by rejecting Jesus Christ.. aka blaspheming the Holy Spirit.. the unpardonable sin.
    I was somewhat tired yesterday but, rested well last night so, I’m much better today. If I ALWAYS contradict myself, you have the right to express that.. but, I do not.. so, we have words and they must have meaning, yes?

    All KNOWN unrepentant sin will send you to Hell? That is grossly inaccurate. There is no “repenting for sins”… when we hear the Word, the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart.. putting forth effort to draw is nigh unto God. We either resist or we yield to the Spirit and believe on Jesus Christ through Faith.. and He saves us, making all the pertinent changes in so we may have His full Grace upon us.. Salvation and forgiveness of sins (past, present and future). Right at the moment we decide to yield to the Holy Spirit, we have repented aka had a change of mind toward God, sin and ourselves.. realizing that we are hopeless hell-deserving sinners in need of Salvation and a Savior.
    That is Biblical repentance.. having a change of mind. Thats good once and for all time, Lydia. After that and throughout our lives as Born-Again Christians, we confess our sins to God. Something He already knows.. but, He wants to know that we acknowledge them, as well. Even though, we can think our confession of sins to Him as He knows our every thought.. and motive.

    God, Himself.. repented many times in the Old Testament : Genesis, Exodus, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel.. etc. Was God repenting of His sins? No! God has no sins.. He does not sin. Respectfully, I can tell that you’ve really been listening close to your spiritual leaders. You see, they must believe certain things before they are allowed to lead, teach and/or preach. They go by a certain doctrine whether its true or false.. and if anyone is going to participate in leading others, they tell them what to believe and therefore, teach. It works the very same way in all denominations. One of the reasons that I do not belong to any congregation.. as unless I can find someone who really knows the Word of God accurately so, as it is intended.. I will stay at home and read/study the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to be my teacher. I know a few things about Messianic Judaism. Some of which may be intended for Jews but, not Gentiles. For instance, the Pentateuch/Torah. Many Messianics believe that Christ taught and re-affirmed the Torah but, I believe that He fulfilled it and it was nailed to the Cross.

    ***Jesus said that ONLY A FEW will get to heaven. So, who is it going to be? The one who KNOWS he is sinning and does nothing about it, or the one who recognizes his sin, repents, asks for forgiveness and his sin is blotted out so there is no record of his sin anymore, anywhere? If you don’t repent of your sin, it WILL be SHOWN to you on the Judgment Day – together with your unrepentant PRIDE. If you repent, it will be blotted out as if it never was. (Obviously, when I say “you” – I mean all of us and not you personally.)
    I would say that the sin of PRIDE is also unforgivable sin. Look what it has done to Satan! He was thrown OUT of heaven for his SIN of pride. So, it IS S-I-N (UNREPENTANT sin) that will keep you out of heaven!!!***

    Seems you are trying to utilize your own human intellect in lieu of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you to truth and understanding of the Word of God. To answer your questions, I will try to be orderly : Only a few will be in Heaven.. so true! But, the examples you gave are way off. You must not read or else, grasp what I try to convey here of any importance. You did grasp my (1 time) contradiction faux-pas. Kudos! Heres something of value : Christ is not speaking of those of whom are Born-Again and commit sins. He is speaking about rejectors of Christ, so-called “Christians” who think/believe Salvation is Christ + them.. Heretics.. wolves in sheeps clothing aka prosperity preachers.. televangelists who prey on Gods people and potential people for their own selfish, greedy monetary gain.. and the list goes on. And these are but a few who think they’re going to Heaven.. not unbelievers, atheists, satanists. And no, the sin of pride is forgiven. There is only one unforgivable sin. We’ve been over that 🙂

    Thats why its important what we believe. You are so majorly concerned with sin.. which is important, I’m not down-playing sin.. but, I put my heart, mind and emphasis on Jesus Christ. What you’re saying in the above paragraph is vastly inaccurate. You are (in so many words) denying the power in the Blood of Christ. What you perhaps, do not understand.. is that when Jesus Christ saves us, His Righteousness is imputed to us. His body is a veil over us (individually speaking).. so, when God the Father looks at us, He is looking through Jesus Christ. Kind of like a cheese-cloth over a camera lens.. makes the subject appear flawless… same thing. We have the righteousness of Christ. So, does Christ sin? No. Neither do we in the eyes of God. In other words, we stay cleansed of all unrighteousness that we know in our own human hearts that we may experience. We know that we still sin.. and the Holy Spirit convicts us gently. We must be mindful of our transgressions and be aware.. but, move on and not dwell upon them.. knowing who we are in Christ.

    There will be a judgment of Christians and a judgment for unbelievers. When the Rapture occurs, the graves of all Christians will open and they will ascend toward the clouds.. and the Christians who are alive will follow.. and meet Christ in the air. At that time, the Judgment Seat of Christ will occur and all the deeds of all Christians will be tried by fire. Any deed that was not in Christ will turn to ash.. and what remains is the determining factor upon our rewards. This judgment is not to determine where a person is spending eternity.. as its a given, the fact that if a person goes up in the Rapture whether dead or alive, they’re saved.

    The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers.. and that is the last judgment that occurs after the Millennial-Reign.. after satan has been released for a season, gathered up his army and gets his butt and their butts kicked by Gods people.. then, he is tossed back into the pit, along with the beast and false-prophet and it is sealed. Then, comes the Great White Throne Judgment.. where whoevers name is not found in the Book of Life (which will be all of them) will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

    The Book of Life is a birth record of everyone who was, is or will ever be born. If a person turns to Christ and is saved, his / her name remains in the Book of Life.. and will be recorded into the Lamb’s Book of Life.. never to be blotted out. But, if a person rejects Christ and dies in that unbelieving lost state, his / her name is blotted out of the Book of Life.. spoken of in Rev 20. There are many Books. God keeps perfect records.

    I may have gotten off-course… but, perhaps it needed to be stated. Bottom line : if a person is saved, that person can never lose their Salvation. God is not an “Indian-Giver”… and our Salvation is not conditional nor is it on loan to us. All of that is pure, unadulterated heresy.

    Lydia~ I absolutely mean no disrespect toward you. However, if you do not fully understand Gods Divine Plan of Salvation, much of what you state is moot. We can quote scripture until Jesus comes but, if we don’t know the true intention and meaning of them, it does no one any good.

    *****2. “It’s not up to us to change…but, be willing to be changed by God.”
    And what if you’re NOT WILLING to change and want to hang on to your sin, and interpret the scripture to fit your sinful state – where does that leave you? In heaven or hell?**** Since God does the saving.. and made me Righteous, Justified, Regenerated, a family member, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, partaker in His Inheritance, name in the Lambs Book of Life.. and all sealed by the Holy Spirit…. THAT LEAVE ME CLEAN AND PURE AS DRIVEN SNOW! Heaven-bound, sister! And if you cannot or plainly will not believe that truth, where does that leave you.. HEAVEN OR HELL??? Think about this : I did nothing to get saved.. just believe on Christ. Grace is a gift, yes? Do we work for a Gift? If someone gives you a gift, are there strings attached? If someone offers you a gift and you accept it, are there conditions? Do you owe the person because they gave you a gift? No.. no.. no.. and no!

    Try this : if we know and understand the list of things.. the changes God makes in us instantaneously at the moment of Salvation (in which, we did nothing for).. in order for us to lose our Salvation, He would have to reverse everything He did in us. Make us unrighteous.. make us un-justified.. make us un-regenerated.. He would have to un-adopt us, kicking us out of His family.. write us out of His Inheritance… evict the Holy Spirit.. and erace our name from the Lambs Book of Life….. all after He broke the Seal of the Holy Spirit.. in order to condemn us to Hell.

    None of which, would ever happen.

    Funny, how I thought you were AG, Pentacostal ..etc. Messianic Jews believe in continuing with all the religious ritualistic things (other than Communion, in which I participate).. and still hold tightly onto the Torah. Well, Lydia if we’ve broken one Commandment, we’ve broken them all. Do you partake of pork? God says its neither common nor unclean.. slay and eat!

    Have you read everything that used to be an ‘abomination?’ Why do people who just do not ‘get it’ like to channel in on sexual-sin? I think its because of ENVY. Well, I’m single and celibate. Hence, my attitude.. hahaha!

    Ezekiel = Old Testament. Its common knowledge that everyone is going to die. The Bible speaks intermittently about death.. both, physical and spiritual. Adams transgressions is the root-cause of that.

    ****I am not second-guessing myself – I have the Bible to prove me right OR wrong – and I don’t argue with God’s word. It says that if we DO NOT SUBMIT to God’s LAW, we are HOSTILE to God. Christians that do not repent of their sin (that do not submit to God’s Law) and move on, live in the flesh and are HOSTILE to God and CANNOT PLEASE HIM – Jesus or no Jesus.
    Setting one’s mind on the Spirit, on the other hand, means you are willing to listen to the Spirit when he shines a light on your sin and are WILLING to repent – not fight God’s word and interpret it to fit your sin.****

    No, you just read the words that are printed on the pages and that suffices for you, yes? No interpretation needed, right? Wrong! I simply cannot stress enough.. the POWER IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. While you are plagued with the thoughts of whether you’ve sinned in the past 10 minutes or not. You live in constant fear, so it seems… and I really hate that for you. Wheres the Blessed Assurance? I’ll tell you where you think it is : ‘as longs as you perform, you have that assurance’.. but, theres nothing “Blessed” about that kind of assurance.. because thats nothing more than, ‘self-assurance’.. and you’ve already admitted to that. Self-assurance = no-assurance = false-hope.
    Works-Salvation. You’re afraid you’re going to fall from Grace over the least little issue.. and it is all rooted in your vast misinterpretation of the Word of God.

    You (and others) accuse me of trying to make the Bible conform to myself.. in which, I have not done… whereas, you take what the Bible reads and roll with it.. in lieu of properly interpreting and therefore, knowing what it is actually saying. Some passages we can do that.. while others need proper interpretation. And I’m not saying study the Greek and Hebrew (Aramaic?) scriptures.. but, cross-referencing scripture with scripture.. working the vast ‘equation of words’ as it were.. to come to a conclusive Biblical truth and understanding. Otherwise, sometimes the Word of God does indeed appear on the surface as contradictory in places. Whereas, we know that it is not.. but, it would seem that way to the person utilizing their own human-intellect.. in which, as we know.. that takes a person only just so far and they will miss some of the most vital elements of the Word. As God and the things of His far surpass all human-intellect and reasoning. Thats why I say it’s paramount to put forth vast effort in studying and praying while doing so as to get proper sound knowledge and understanding.

    And its so simple. I explain it as such… while others seems to take great delight in complicating it. And when would-be Christians hear the wrong message, they know and realize its an impossible task and so, why try? Everybody in the world knows we are only human.. and humans have a sinful nature. And if they just plainly read the words on the pages of the Bible.. many realize is not possible to “live up to” what God expects of us…. as it is being solidified by those of whom misinterpret the scriptures. Its the work of satan.. and he is good at what he does. A networking devil, indeed!

    As I’ve said… the burden of our Eternal Salvation is entirely on God.. and not ourselves. I believe it.. I live it. Lydia, you will agree with that statement.. but, then you turn around and stress many, many things that is contradictory to that truth. THAT is what discourages many would-be Christians.. as well as, many Christians of whom aren’t so well-grounded as of yet. They start questioning their own Salvation… which is dirty-pool!

    Hope this helps.

  64. George - May 13, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    I believe a Christian can lose their salvation. For example: Romans 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.

    God has given us free will to choose. Jesus first teaching was Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    We are all sinners, it is only by God’s grace and mercy we are saved. There are several verses in the Holy Bible that tells us to pray because we are dependent on God for every good; without him you can do nothing.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    If you believe in Jesus Christ, you should try your best to do what He teaches which is to repent and believe the gospel. If you believe, you will want to following His teachings.

  65. Margo - May 13, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    James~ I don’t think I would’ve had to ever meet Paul to know that he was just a man.. a human-being who was a sinner saved by Grace. I also know exactly the damages of being ostracized. The Jehovah’s Witnesses use (abuse?)this very thing to manipulate their members. So, conjecture.. its not.

    ***(2) IMO. Sorry, our opinions do not count when it comes to the Word of God. We accept what it says and, if we don’t, we make sure we are correct in the true meaning through our pastors, brothers and sisters in Christ, commentaries, study, etc. If we hold to our errant opinion in the face of Bible truth, then we are set to compromise our beliefs or fall into sin ourself.***

    Perhaps, not… but, I can still form them and express them. Actually, the scripture in question may very well be more for the protection of the congregation than the one who is in sin? All I know is that Paul called out Peter in front of everyone about being a hypocrite.. dining with the Gentiles (which was an abomination unto the Jews).. and when his Jew buddies walked onto the scene.. he causally slipped away from those Gentiles and unto his Jew buddies as though nothing was wrong.. but, Paul saw through all of that and said something to him about it. Frankly, I will dine with whomever I please. I’m not better than anyone else.. and one never knows when they could help someone else. It may be through something seemingly miniscule that is said.. who knows? If you live by this practice that Paul says we should do.. have at it. Jesus kept company with the under-dogs and a out-casts of society. Fall into sin, ourselves? Are you forgetting that we are indeed, sinners (saved by Grace)??? We are human and we sin.. end of story.

    Please tell us about Paul in Romans 7 🙂

  66. Lydia - May 13, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    Margo,

    I said I didn’t want to repeat myself again and go sparring with you in circles because we obviously do not agree.
    Only one more thing I want to say is you have no idea who and what Messianic Jews are, what they do, how they believe or worship, what they eat, etc. (re pork – there are non-Jewish Christians that are not eating pork also, but that is not the point). There are Messianic congregations and then there are Messianic congregations – as in any other denomination. And I would appreciate it if you would not make fun of them – especially since you obviously you don’t go to church – and since you never saw inside of any Messianic congregation.
    I just realized – all your comments – it’s all about you actually. Well, go for it.

  67. Margo - May 13, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Lydia~ You have no problem getting KATTY with me. And you’re most sadly mistaken.. as I know enough about Messianic Judaism and know what I am talking about. I have a close friend who attends a Messianic Jewish congregation.. so, you’re mistaken about me. If a person chooses not to eat pork, its their business. My point is the reason(s) they don’t partake. They surely cannot say its common or unclean.. as God says otherwise.

    I’m am not making fun of anyone. Do you ever leave your own home? You seem easily offended. You misconstrue what I convey just as you do the Word of God. Sadly.

    Have you checked out Gediminas video? I invite you to do so.

    All of my comments are ALL ABOUT JESUS CHRIST… not myself.. unlike yourself. How in this world you came up with that hair-brain conclusion is beyond me. Like I said.. satan is a networking devil.

    Take care.. and Shalom.

  68. Brannon - May 13, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    (James 3:1)”Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.”

    In RT Kendall’s book “The Power of Humility”, He talks about how true Wisdom is found only through the Holy Spirit. The moment one takes pride in what they know and not what the Holy Spirit is currently telling them, the Holy Spirit leaves their consciousness, and takes Wisdom with it. A measure of wisdom may be confused with the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit, as every believer and non believer is granted this through Common Grace, but this measure is not Holy.

    Before you post something for everyone to see, consider whether its coming to prove that your opinion is correct, or if it God sent.

  69. Margo - May 13, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Lydia~

    ***Funny how you never answer the pointed or specific questions I put before you. I guess they are uncomfortable for you and you don’t have an answer to them.
    You don’t understand what you read and turn my words completely around. Are you for real?
    It seems that you read your Bible the same way (if you do) – picking and choosing the verses that are suitable for pacifying your conscience when you know you’re doing something against God’s will – turning the words completely around to suit your situation.
    Let’s agree to disagree and leave it be, because I just don’t want to go around in circles and don’t want to keep repeating myself.***

    You know that a little yeast is good for the soul 😉

    I will be happy to address any question you may have for me.. but, sometimes, I become a little overwhelmed at being bombarded with much of what we have already gone over.

    I understand what I read. Maybe your communication skills are lacking? Ever heard of the ‘benefit of doubt?’ How long have you known Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior? Just curious.. as I can tell that you are full of the OLD LAW.. which, was fulfilled by Jesus Christ and nailed to the Cross. We must live ENTIRELY AND TOTALLY UNDER GRACE… and not by the Law. Would you like to be judged by the Law? Because if you do, you’ve already failed!

    1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is THE LAW.”

    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of THE LAW, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of THE LAW: for by the works of THE LAW shall no flesh be justified.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of THE LAW are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of THE LAW to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by THE LAW in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And THE LAW is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    Lydia, I don’t turn your words around. I read what you type. Please don’t spin your spiritual malnourishment trying to make it my issue. I’m not in competition with you or anyone else.. just would like for you to grasp what I convey to you.

    Nor do I read my Bible (and yes, I read it.. study it too!!!) in such a manner that you’ve explained. I know how to read/study Gods Word. My conscience doesn’t need pacifying. My Spirit sometimes needs settling.. especially when dealing with the lost.

    Lets agree to disagree.. hahaha! Well, somebodies soul may be on the line… and my guess is.. its not mine.

    Good Luck with that.

    Take Care.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_zEGJoE_Q&feature=related

  70. Lydia - May 13, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Margo, I’ve known Jesus for 40 years and he carried me through some really rough times, but when I sinned, I repented and asked for his forgiveness when that sin was buried. And when some sin was hard to get rid of, I asked for his help and he walked me through until I buried that specific sin. I did not wallow in that sin and say “Jesus paid the price so I can just enjoy my sin”.

    And yes, I did feel the burden of sin, but when I buried the sin – WITH HIS HELP – and received the forgiveness of Jesus, THAT was sweet and light.

    Anyway, I apologize once again for loosing it in my comments. And since we don’t seem to agree on the subject, I respectfully say Shalom.

  71. Beth - May 13, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    Well, it has taken me a few years to reach this conclusion and be sure of it, but I do not think anyone can lose their salvation. They can choose to leave Jesus and give up their salvation however as has been previously stated so well by Margo.

    A relative recently asked me about my faith. And I was so glad I had been thinking about salvation so much and could talk with him intelligently. But what made me happier than that was that he could see Jesus in my life, and so that is why the question came up. And that is the deal with salvation. We will still sin ofcourse, but we should be morphing over time into people who are more loving, and have a greater curiosity about God over time.

    Thanks so much everyone for all your comments. Great to see people working through their faith, even if it gets a little heated sometimes. May Jesus help each of us to grow in understanding of Him.

  72. Pricilla - May 20, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    For Lance,

    I used to listen to Charles Stanley way back, but have stopped doing so for a number of years.

    If you bury a beautiful gift in a yard, it means it is not worth to you anything and you don’t need it. If we use that as an example, that would mean that Jesus is also worthless to you and you don’t need him.

    But we do need Jesus for our salvation. So, the example is not very good.

    Also, Jesus said that only a FEW will find the way to heaven, so where does it leave the majority of Christians who think they will get to heaven?

  73. Shanelle - May 23, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Margo- I agree with you re the Bible…curious to know why you believe Joyce Myers is leading ppl in the wrong direction?

  74. Sari - May 23, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    I love this site! I will start off by stating that I know the Lord and am saved.

    I would live to get unbiased feedback re my situation.
    I am engaged and have recently moved in with my fiancé. Our wedding date is in Jan 2013. We have been together for 2 years and are not having sex and are choosing to wait until we get married. We chose to move in together (although my parents are very upset at me (us), and frequently remind me that they did not raise me like this) we chose to do so to save money for our wedding. We are not getting any financial help. We can’t afford to live separately and pay double everything and have a wedding. I’m not trying to justify anything, but it’s reality for us.
    With that said, are we wrong to live together even though we are not fornicating and won’t?

  75. cynthia - May 28, 2012 at 8:18 am

    After reading your article and the scriptures to back them up, i prayed for the holy spirit to revealed this matter to me, and indeed he did, we can lose our salvation, thats why in the bible says to guard your crown meaning your salvation with fear, so at the end you could receive your reward, also it saids not to give up in doing good, because at
    end you will received your crown of eternal life..thats why in the bible Jesus gives the example of the virgins with oil lamps, the principle was that this virgen only put oil in their lamps the first time and they had to wait for there persuer to come up to their doors to ask their hand in marriage, and only the ones that ontinued diligently adding oil to that lamp would had been spoken for…but again Ask God as i did ti revealed the truth to you, before is to late. Be bless

  76. PenguinTodd - May 31, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Hi again. I’ve been away from the discussion for a bit. I see you guys haven’t had anything to talk about since I last posted. 😉

    Personally, I enjoy seeing the obvious passion for Christ in the posts and reading the testimony of each person’s faith. Although we have different understandings of the nature of salvation, I believe we each have a passion for Christ.

    I believe the difference lies in which of these views you subscribe to in regards to Christ at the cross:

    A) Christ at the cross provides salvation for those who believe.
    B) Christ at the cross provides an opportunity for salvation and is the means to overcome sin for salvation.

    The first view (A) establishes that your faith in Christ and His work at the cross accounts for your righteousness, apart from YOUR works in overcoming sin. Commonly know as imputed righteousness. It can be understood as an external grace, which not only covers your sin but is a complete atonement for your sins (a long discussion can be made on the meanings of forgiveness and atonement). Believers of this view see salvation in the words of Lord Jesus “IT IS FINISHED” as meaning it is finished.

    You are made clean and pure by the blood shed by Lord Jesus Christ, alone. Thus, salvation is justification at the cross, alone. Please note that the use of the word “alone” here is not understood as a change to scripture but rather an emphasis on the truth of scripture such to bring clarity to its meaning. That is, to emphasis that God’s grace of salvation is purely a gift from God which was purchased via the blood shed by Christ at the cross and received by you through faith that this is the TRUTH– THE GOSPEL.

    For the first view (A), sanctification is to the establishment of purity in the believer such that the Holy Spirit can do a work through that person (you are to become a representative of Christ). Your baptism signifies your acceptance of Christ and to place yourself in His service. All true believers are “born again” spiritually and undergo some degree of purification/sanctification by the very grace of receiving the Holy Spirit at justification. The extent of the purification is dependent upon the believer’s cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Further, the believer is subject to chastisement or loss of rewards in heaven, if he becomes uncooperative. Sanctification in believers covers a wide, wide spectrum of purity and can fluctuate for any believer over time and is ongoing. Paul talked about “babes in Christ” versus “mature in Christ” which relates more to our length of time in sanctification (we should improve our standing over time) but also can relate to the validity of our faith too.

    The second view (B) establishes that your faith is in the belief that Christ overcame sin, died at the cross and became a sin offering. However, for salvation you must cooperate with Him such to establish His righteous in you. This is commonly referred to as infused righteousness. It is understood to be an internal ownership, not just covered and an atonement of sin, but a transformation of the believer to the very righteousness of God. Believers of this view see salvation in the words of Jesus “IT IS FINISHED” as meaning that salvation grace is finished by Him but just the beginning of salvation for the believer.

    A true believer is one who is born anew and departs from sin. You must stop sinning to be saved. Justification and sanctification are seen as co-partners in the salvation process. A person is not saved until he is rid of sin. Where there is sin, there is no salvation. Consequently, since we are constantly in a struggle against sin there is no such thing as assured eternal salvation and no such thing as “once saved always saved.” Though Christ and His work are eternal, or the grace is eternal, your salvation is not (at least not in this life). Repentance and purification are an ongoing demand for the believer FOR salvation. Salvation is the GIFT AS A CHIEF REWARD for your perseverance and overcoming. There are other rewards as well for your witnessing and testimony of Christ in your life.

    I hope this helps, is clear and representative in describing the two different takes on salvation. May God Bless, may you keep your faith.

  77. Anthony - June 1, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Didn’t Jesus tell us to avoid sectarianism? Look at us no wonder academia can shut us down as ignorant folk; we don’t even follow christian ethics in our arguments. I believe the Holy spirit uses scripture as a tool for individual revelations. Who knows God’s plan, who is truly saved or not ? Remember “he who is without sin cast the first stone.”. I know what suffering with sin is like , I have OCD and I’m tired of people telling me that I am afflicted by some sort of sin! The Lord does not deal with us according to our inequities , and so far as east is from the west so far has the Lord removed our sin. I fully understand that he won’t contend forever , however how can we move forward if we are concerned about always committing sin. Jesus didn’t come to condemn, he came to preach peace and the grace of GOD, why else would he say ” Forgive them for they know not …” and what about Peter denying him three times! Listen if even the apostles failed at times , I think God understands our struggles.
    What gets us into trouble as believers is when we apply limits to GOD, and his ability to forgive. Like my mom used to say , ” Are you Jesus?”. Who was it that Jesus condemned the Tax collectors or Adulteress , or was the righteous scribes and pharisees? As Christians why do we have to rely on a consensus , I thought this was a personal relationship with Our Lord and Savior? We are all eleventh hour believers, all prodigal sons, and we alone have to answer to GOD so stop attacking each other over pride. Remember be humble , Paul is not the end all be all he is second to Jesus so don’t hinge all your faith on him. Just trust GOD and his spirit to guide you individually to the truth and please stop applying human dichotomies to the LORD , he is above all!

  78. James - June 1, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    To PenguinTodd:

    ‘One problem of viewing Talents here as salvation,’

    (Is it possible you misread my post? I never referred to talents as salvation but rather associated them with abilities. I believe the ‘talents’ refers to the abilities given to man by the Lord.)

    ‘is that what was given to the third man is taken from him and given to the first. Why would the third man’s salvation need to be given to the first? If he was saved, he was saved.’

    (The third man’s salvation was not given to the first.)

    ‘It has more to do with the trusting of service, abilities and faith in service to God and not salvation itself. Anyway, this is my view on this parable.’

    (While I agree with the trusting of service, abilities and faith in service to God, the master’s response in 25:30 “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” is plain to understand by all. Jesus did not finish the parable at verse 29, He continued with verse 30 to let the listeners know what to expect if they do not make use of the talent(s) given to them. A talent given by Jesus is valuable to Him and His Kingdom even if the servant does not think it is.)

  79. PenguinTodd - June 6, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    In regards to the “…every human receives a talent or talents from the Lord whether they are saved or not. I don’t know of a scripture that states that.”

    God is the Creator of all things. We were created in His image. He draws us to Him based on His foreknowledge of us. Christ and salvation through Him was established at the foundation of the earth/all of creation/in the beginning. It is His will that none shall perish. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

    Hopefully in this regard you and I agree that failure for salvation is because of OUR unwillingness and not because we lack from God. That is all I mean in regards to the parable and gifts from God. One commentary has the gift/Talent being the gospel message itself. Whereby, some take to it and are saved while others do not.

    Know that I seek truth and understanding and not quarrels or to be dismissive of other views, except that they CLEARLY are in error or promote a cult. That is why I came here, to learn, to share, to increase in faith and to be strengthen to a higher call of purity.

    Let me say that my understanding of our differences is to how we view the state of unsaved people. Can we Be Saved and then Lose our Salvation as you suggest from scripture reading. Or, are there truly only two kinds of people: saved and unsaved people as I suggest from scripture reading. That is, it is a case of false salvation and not lost salvation.

    This is how I see the difference in our views. In some regards it doesn’t matter which language we use to describe the condition because it establishes the same conclusion. However, in other regards it makes all the difference in the world (heaven or hell perhaps) because it is rooted in our faith. That is, if there is a failure on our part to a necessity of righteousness for salvation or of keeping it, and that we are in deception about being saved.

    This is the reason why I posted an earlier comment about going back to the beginning, back to the cross. What we say happened at the cross, Christ’s sacrifice, our ensuing faith, and the gospel speaks to the very core of how we answer this question. Personally, I think we should discussion is more about our FAITH than about the topic/doctrines of salvation.

    My understanding is that neither viewpoint is saying be lax on sin or we can now sin our way into heaven. That’s just not Godly. However, it appears that view is saying you have to work to either have or keep your salvation (and perhaps there is confusion here in this understanding/labeling). That it is ON YOU to either finish the work or to keep the work of salvation.

    The other view is simply saying a truly saved person cannot live a life in continuance of sin because of the persecution of the Holy Spirit that is in him or because God will chastise him unto a correction or unto death even– take you out of this world.

    I think we both would say a Christian may have some failures in sin. But, hopefully we agree that he cannot subscribed to a life of sin. That he can’t hold a righteousness to sin anymore. In this second view we are called to purity in walk because that is where our true love is– love of Christ and righteousness. The second view sees it as we seek it for a love of Christ and for His glory and not for ourselves such to receive salvation. Salvation was received at the deliverance in Christ and the Holy Spirit so that a walk in purity is made possible. Not the other way around.

    As for Paul and Ephesians,

    From Ephesians 1: 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    Understanding Paul’s writing is to understand the passion and love he has for God and the Lord Jesus Christ. His letters are instructions to call us to that same level of passion, diligence, reverence, and a pursuit to purity.

    As he makes clear in Ephesians 5: 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    Here he is saying you who are in Christ aren’t just called to be good/light BUT THAT ARE LIGHT now. You weren’t just in darkness but WERE DARKNESS ITSELF.

    Paul is loving but firm in his approach in addressing sinful behaviors by reported Christians. He establishes upfront in a gentle and inspiring reminder that coming to Christ is to live by our first love– Christ and the wonderfulness of our salvation in Him. But, he also affirms that we aren’t just called to salvation but also to a good work (fruit) for the Lord because we were bought for a price. Further, we aren’t to act in certain ways anymore but to seek purity in our life. He reminds them that those prior behaviors are the behaviors of unsaved folks not Christians.

    Note that he doesn’t come out and say you are unsaved folk.

    He affirms what is a proper association of behaviors for a Christian and what is not a proper association of behaviors. Further, that those improper behaviors are of a person who is unsaved. For if such a behavior constitutes the person they cannot have to be saved in the first place.

    Now, does this mean that if they continue they will lose their salvation? That it is an indication that they weren’t really saved at all based on their lack of fruit? That is a good tree produces good fruit, bad tree produces bad fruit. Or, is it that they are backsliders/temporary in their sins and will by this chastisement by Paul repent so that they were truly saved and are still yet saved?

    I guess that is the question and how we answer it our difference in scripture reading. It has been going on for years I might add so it isn’t like this is a new topic. But, I don’t believe it is valuable to discuss.

    As for the church…I agree with your points laid out in regards to the modern world and the church of today. But, I don’t see a church as having salvation to lose but rather a place for God’s grace and His glory. Instead I see it as losing it’s place as a candle for God to draw people to Him. He removes their candle/light. Many mega-churches are going under these days and probably rightfully so because they promote themselves for self-serving wealth instead of God and His word.

    God Bless and keep the faith.

  80. PenguinTodd - June 6, 2012 at 10:21 pm

    Sorry it is late and I made some typos in the prior post. These are the corrections:

    1) Personally, I think we should discussion is more about our FAITH than about the topic/doctrines of salvation. Should have been: Personally, I think we should discuss our FAITH more so than a doctrine of salvation.

    2) However, it appears that [ONE] view is saying you have to work to either have or keep your salvation (and perhaps there is confusion here in this understanding/labeling).

    3) But, I don’t believe it is valuable to discuss. Should be the opposite!
    But, I DO DO DO… believe it is valuable for us (me included) to discuss this.

  81. PenguinTodd - June 7, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    (Faith is required for salvation. After all, an individual must believe that Jesus Christ’s sacrifice at the cross paid for their sins. Doesn’t the following scripture require faith as a component of salvation?)

    Ephesians 2:8-10

    “8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

    (I believe the scripture is plain here. “For by grace are ye save through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, least any man should boast”. We are saved BY faith in Jesus Christ ‘a gift of God’. No amount of hard work, striving to be good, acting morally right or monetary offerings can ever save us. We agree on that.)

    Thank you! I couldn’t agree with you more. This is exactly what I was driving at all along; that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ who was a gift from God and He went to the cross as our sacrifice.

    Bingo. That statement is the very purpose I sought here. This is the faith statement by which I sought to draw everyone to. Further, I had hoped to draw people to profess what their faith is. This was my point about talking about faith rather than salvation. Salvation is the gift to the one who has faith. So, we should talk about faith and what/whom we owe our salvation to, to the means of it, to what we are trusting in.

    My whole intent on this discussion was to make known that their salvation rests in that by grace through the faith in Christ we are saved.

    Not by our hands; neither for yesterday, nor today nor tomorrow.

    Faith in Jesus Christ; that is it! That is all you need: faith in Christ.

    If you have that, you are saved. Further, by faith in Him, turning to Him (not yourself), trusting in Him you’ll will do that work!
    Romans 4: Abraham Justified by Faith
    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
    7 “Blessed are those
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the one
    whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
    9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
    Now, if you want to profess that you can “Lose Your Salvation” then at least keep to the very reason of you having salvation or have hope to have salvation: Faith in CHRIST to deliver you unto a good work. But, please don’t instead turn to your own hands of busy deeds such to think you can or must earn, work, or lay claim to salvation because of your acts or works. Instead, let your works stand as testimony of your committed love and faith in Christ.

    Per James 2: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

    Yet know, I’ll say it is to that faith of your commitment to Christ and not the works in of themselves that stand as your righteousness. For what man can do Godly work without first faith?

    I’m not saying no fruit and yet be saved. I’m saying by a true faith in Christ we produce that fruit and it stands as testimony of a true faith. So, we should place our trust and focus on faith in Christ and not to our hands for that good works/fruit. Faith, faith, faith!

    As for II Thessalonians 2:3
    “3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
    (Why warn about deception if it was not possible? Falling away first – apostasy. Falling away means you are falling away from something. If they were never saved, they couldn’t fall away from salvation. The only one that can ‘fall away’ is someone who is first in not a fallen state. Aren’t we seeing this today? Look at our churches, it’s obvious.)
    Please know that this is talking about the churches in the end of days and the false church teachings. Specifically, it is about the false churches of Christ and their false teachers which are to come in the end. They will move the works of righteousness from Christ to man.

    Just look at the church teachings today. They are about faiths of personal wealth creation. Give God $100.00 (of course write the check to the speaker) and at the end of the month God will give you $1,000 in return! Or, the other teachings which are all warm and fuzzy, such as God has just loved everyone and has no wrath or anger so let’s get in a circle and sing “Kumbaya.” Or the circuit paid “pastors” who go around the country as part of a larger organization of scammers in God’s name doing motivational speeches for money while tossing out a few choice scriptures. They don’t talk about faith in Christ, about his suffering, about your need for repenting. No! They just talk about here is my latest book on 5 steps to a successful marriage, job, money, “you name it.” Or my favorite: “The 7 or 12 Kingdom Keys to success the speaker found in the bible.” Just buy this guy’s book, no need to read the bible. It is all psychology and not scripture. They teach a man delivered peace and righteousness and not a Christ at the cross delivered peace and righteousness.
    Flee from these frauds.
    2 Timothy 4:3-4: 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    Again, I come full circle and repeat my final call which is that it is about FAITH! A faith that is rooting in teach a man about his sin and need for repentance per our transgression against the righteous of God as HE defined it in His commandments, and of Christ, of His sacrifice at the cross, of the Word of God as found in the Holy Bible (to read and study it), to understand what it means to be baptized, to teach of the receiving of the Holy Spirit such to be drawn to fruits in our daily lives.

    Yes, that FAITH! That is what I came here by which to speak! I thank you for our discussions and your patience in my writing (typos and all). God Bless.

  82. timothy - July 7, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    this article is false! no other word for it! its a stumbling block to true Christians, it makes them dought Gods wonderfull saving grace, I know this because I thought I had lost my salvation after reading this but praise the Lord he showed my the truth! shame on the author you should prehaps try considering cross reference some verses and you might get a different meaning to them, I used to come to this site often but not anymore I know for FACT this article is false and if this is false then maybe some other articles might be too! though I am not saying all are because there is some good articles on this website, I would just like to tell the author to really seek what God has to say and carefully write an article that will glorify God and help other Christians on their walk, this article made me stumble big time but God had his everlasting arms around me and lifted me up, what a wonderfull saviour! and “he will never leave thee nor forsake thee” how true 🙂 God bless

  83. Marco - July 18, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    I absolutely agree with this article. I believe that it is faithful to Scripture. According to the epistle of Hebrews, if anyone, who having the experience of having their sins covered by the blood of Jesus, continues to sin willfully, is said to trample the blood and body of Christ.

  84. Dave - July 25, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    With all due respect I think this whole study starts out on the wrong foot. Many people continue down the same path of wrong thinking. The second sentence, “Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?” is the largest folly in American Christianity. We don’t accept Christ, He Accepts us.

    I have been a born again slave to Christ since 2006 and this watered down version of the gospel is everywhere. I think many of these versus can be discredited as proof of being able to lose your salvation with a right understanding of a proper relationship with Christ.

    If you are saved, you have submitted to being a slave to Christ. But believing in Christ and being slave to Christ are two different things. The later is required in order to be saved. Even Satan himself believes in Jesus, but he refuses to be slave to Christ.

    You can believe in Jesus, and his power all day long. You likely can even do works for him, or in his name, this doesn’t make you saved. You clearly must die to yourself and become a Slave to Christ. Not a servant, not an employee, a Slave. Servants and Employees get paid and have an option to quit. Slaves are owned by their masters. In your example of “Lord Lord…” you seem to look completely past the words of Christ, “I never knew you…” He’s not saying I don’t know you anymore, he’s saying I NEVER KNEW YOU! If they were ever at any given time saved, then Jesus Christ must be guilty of lying, because he would have known them at one point.

    In addition there is not varying degrees of sin when it comes to determining your salvation. There is grace, or your going to hell. Aside from blaspheming the Holy Spirit, breaking one single law of Gods, is the same as breaking them all (James 2:10).

    I’m not choosing a side in this post, simply pointing out that this study is flawed. There are scripture out of context,

  85. James - July 29, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Dave,

    I disagree with “We don’t accept Christ,” and I agree with “He accepts us.”

    Romans 10:9 states:
    “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

    We have to “confess” which describes an action and we have to accept His offer of salvation.

    Matthew 10:32-33
    “Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in Heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in Heaven.”

    As far as your comment about the discussion, there is nothing wrong with asking questions and discussing scripture. I, for one, have appreciated the dialogue from others and have learned. Even Jesus’ disciples asked the Lord and Saviour questions because they wanted understanding. Yes, sometimes He corrected them and other times He lovingly taught them.

    Proverbs 4:7
    “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.”

    Unsaved people may come to this web site searching for Truth. It is our duty as Christians to lead them to Christ which is the Word of God, the Bible. I agree we must become slaves to Christ but many people don’t know the practical way to accomplish this.

    Thanks for your comments.

  86. Lords Pastor - August 14, 2012 at 1:15 am

    I have researched the scriptures and understand that only God saves us through our faith and repentance of sin! When we are saved we have the Holy Spirit of God living within us! When we are saved the bible tells us to yield to the Spirit and not the flesh! When we are saved, God does not make us a robot that has no choice of determining our own decisions as many want to believe! I know ministers who after many souls being won for Christ after preaching many years the faith living the life and turned back to the world! One scipture that is in two of the gospels spoken by Jesus says ” He that endureth till the end, the same shall be saved”. Salvation is free and the little word “if” that we read befroe many scripture verses means ( Whether or Not) telling me that our Salvation is of God and conditional on our faith in following the teachings of Jesus! Whom ever you yield yourself a servant to sin unto death or righteousness unto life i the key of making it to heaven! James chapter one many don’t like to read when it say faith without works is dead and other things about faith and the Christian walk. I can take the Word and twist minds to believe anything, but only the truth as Jesus showed throughout all the scripture will get us to heaven friends! I will live for Jesus and walk as God commanded us too! “If” we walk in the Spirit as he is in the Spirit, the blood of Jesus Christ cleaseth us of all sin! Our walk is never going to be perfect in this fleshly body, but we are commanded to try to walk it anyways!! Remember the little word (if) WHEN YOU READ THE SCRIPTURE!

  87. Margo - August 14, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Lords Pastor, Or Salvation is not conditional. Once God saves an individual, his/her Salvation is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Once an individual is saved, he/she will sin.. and sometimes willfully but, that does not make one any less saved. We all sin in one way or another every day.. action, deed and/or thought. Its all about the heart.. and not the flesh. When we are saved, God does all the saving and makes all the changes.. with the initial changes being spiritual conversion, placing us in His perfect state and most worthy of Heaven. There is no ‘repentance of sin’.. however, when we turn to Christ for Salvation and forgiveness of sins, we have experienced “repentance” aka a change of mind.. toward ourselves, God and sin. In order for us to become saved, we turn to Christ in belief through faith.. and He saves us. ”He that endureth till the end, the same shall be saved” is about ‘believing’ on Christ only for Salvation.. as opposed to believing on Christ + ourselves. When we become Born-Again, we are still human.. and the human nature is sinful. Isaiah 64:6 tells us “”But we are all like an unclean thing, and all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags””.. meaning that there is nothing we can do to earn or add-to or maintain our Salvation but, believe on and trust solely in Jesus Christ for our Salvation.

    Please read Romans 7.. it is Paul speaking about himself, post-conversion.

    Blessings!

  88. PenguinTodd - September 7, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    I am perplexed that this is still debatable. Let me try to put this in simple terms for understanding. You are saved at the cross, period. To deny this (take away) is to not be saved. To add to it (I have to do this or not do this to keep my salvation) is to not put your faith in Christ at the cross but to place your faith in something else or someone else—you most likely; and thus, not saved.

    IT WAS FINISHED AT THE CROSS!

    To say you can lose your salvation is to profess that salvation depends on something other than Christ dying at the cross, and usually this means something you must do to save yourself. Anything other than Christ is the Savior is to say Christ isn’t the Savior. What shall we confess to others, that there is no security in Christ? Should we say, can’t put your trust in Him? God forbid!

    What exactly is your faith confession and trust? Is it not that Christ delivered! Is it not that he went to the cross and died for your sins? If not, then you don’t have a sacrifice and you are still in your sins.

    Do you not truly understand why it is called good news? That is the GOSPEL! Christ went to the cross and rose to life; HE DID IT! And, now by GRACE and HIS work at the cross we are saved! How can you place a faith in anything else and be delivered? What faith have you, if not JESUS the CHRIST!

    Our, Lord, our God, our SAVIOR! If you truly understand the magnitude of the meaning of what he did, of this grace, then surely you should be weeping now. There is no repayment possible. And, behold– none is asked! Just place your faith in Him, the Savior!

    Some will say what about post-sin and sanctification? What, are they not important? Can we just then sin away? No, of course not. Paul answered that already. How can you claim faith in Christ, that HE is the righteous one, the truth, the way and the life and at the same time place a righteous trust in sin? You can’t. It’s one or the other—you can’t have two masters. If you have belief in Christ (meaning who he was and what he did), you must persecute sin in your life; you see sin for what it is because you have faith in Christ as the standard for righteousness (oh and something about having the Holy Spirit to call you out on this too).

    You see sin as an offense before God; you confess and you repent. Now this might take effort, time and perhaps even others to call it to your attention (hello, this is one of the things fellow Christians are suppose to do for one another and the Church, but not to be ugly about it but with gentleness, understanding, compassion, love, tenderness, caring). You just might need the support of others to help you overcome. That is why it is called– and we are call to– fellowship. Also, praise and prayer go a long way towards overcoming. Remember Christ is the VICTOR over sin, not you.

    Before you came to Christ you JUSTIFIED your sin before God. But, if you are now JUSTIFIED before God, then sin can no longer be justified but must be persecuted, die on the Cross if you will. Thus, the saying, “Take up your cross daily.” Ours is a daily walk, a daily persecution of sin.

    But we can only persecute sin if we have the righteousness of God. A sinner doesn’t persecute sin, he justifies it; thus, the conflict between the righteous and the unrighteous. You sanctify your walk because you are saved, not to become saved. How can you sanctify without first being justified? You can’t. Try telling a person who doesn’t believe in God to stop sinning and see what comes out of their mouth. It won’t be a heart of repenting, I’ll tell you that.

    Fundamentally people are confusing “the committing of sin” versus “living in sin.” The first is a failure to faithfulness, a weakness, a fall to temptation, a struggle in an ongoing battle towards sanctification. The second is not a failure in sanctification but a failure in justification to begin with. In other words, you aren’t saved. No, it isn’t “loss of salvation” but rather a false salvation in the first place; you never had it. Jesus didn’t say, “I knew you and you were my flock but somehow you escaped me and my love and death on the cross and as such you became unsaved.” BS (bacon slices—ps: I’m putting a patent on this now, he-he)! No, He says, “I never knew you.” Meaning you weren’t saved at all and not this fallacy of saved and then lost.

    The whole perseverance of faith is towards separation. Throughout the bible it is about separating the truth from the lies (prophets, teachers), the believer from the false believer: wheat from chaff, the sheep from the goats, good branch in the vine from the one not in the vine, the wheat and the weeds, etc….

    Salvation is paralleled in the book of Exodus and taken up as a teaching in Hebrews. The walk in the desert was for purifying, sanctification. Those lost along the way all fell to UNBELIEF not loss of salvation. They were separated like wheat from the chaff, believers from false believers. They were in it for the love of the “deliverables” instead of being in it for the love of the one who delivers. Their faith was in stuff. That is why they groaned, and bemoaned the manna from Heaven, and said we had it better in Egypt, built an altar to a false god. How can you declare them saved and unsaved at the same time, or the same breath? They weren’t saved; they were false believers because their hearts were shrouded in UNBELIEF. God separated them there in the desert.

    Paul implores us to establish Christ likeness in us as an obligation to our salvation, not as a means to the ends such that it becomes salvation. Yes, we have a responsibility in salvation but not to the obtaining of it. I walk because I’m saved, because of what Christ did, not I think I’ll walk so I can become saved. To say the latter is to bring forth saving by your hands. Paul tells us to test our faith, and by the way God will test it too.

    So, is your faith true? Does it persevere or does it wilt as in the sower of seeds parable upon first sign of tribulation? Do we have a faith, a love for Jesus the Christ? If so, then seek that you live for Him too, for is it not a good work for Him and for others; and will God not reward us for it? If in our test of ourselves we find that we have a strong commitment to the sin, a love and justification of it, then that is your faith statement. And, it isn’t Christ and you can’t call it salvation by any means: either salvation current, past or lost. There is no gray in God, either it is or it isn’t. The problem we have is God already knows and He is trying to teach us the truth about ourselves and about our future with the hope that we’ll turn and be saved and or walk in truth where needed. To seek, to listen, to pray, to read the Bible for understanding, to defer to Him, now that is our responsibility. And, that my friend is faith.

    Do you have faith in Christ or not?

    God Bless.

  89. Margo - September 8, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    PenguinTodd, I agree with most of what you’re saying.. however, per “the committing of sin” versus “living in sin”.. its all the very same positionally to the Born-Again Believer. If God does the justifying (and we all know He does) there is no ‘failure in justification’ to begin with. The moment God saves us, we are made justified.. just like we are made righteous.. etc. We all sin in one way or another every single day.. thought, deed and/or action, post-conversion. Have you, or do you know of someone who is a Born-Again Believer that has married, divorced and remarried someone else, for reasons other than infidelity? The Word of God tells us, those who do that are adulterers. Is that a one-time act of committing adultery or would such couples be ‘living in sin?’

    Also, when we turn to Christ in belief to receive His Grace through Faith, we have, at that time.. repented. Biblical repentance is simply ‘having a change of mind’.. and in this case, a change of mind about ourselves.. about God.. and about sin. The Book of John is the ‘heart’ of Salvation. While it mentions “believe / believeth” around 85 times, it never mentions the term “repent.” So, its a given that when we turn to Jesus Christ in Belief, we have repented. Therefore, once we become Born-Again Believers.. when we sin, we don’t ‘repent of our sins’.. but, we ‘confess’ our sins. God already knows we have sinned.. and He wants to know that WE KNOW we have sinned. When we first turn to Christ for Salvation and forgiveness of sins, that is forgiveness of ALL sins.. past, present and future. At the very moment He saves us, His Righteousness in imputed to us.. and He is a veil over us so, when God, the Father looks at us, He is looking through Jesus Christ.. and sees sinless perfection. Even when we know in our own hearts that we may have dropped the ball, God does not see us in that light. We are His children and He chastises us.. but, we are no longer condemned.. our sins are. God saves us while we are still yet, sinners. Many like to think (and say) we must clean up our act.. turn over a new leaf.. forsake sin.. in order to turn to Christ and be saved. And once we are saved, we must forsake sin in order to stay saved. Couldn’t be any further from the truth. Justification and Sanctification are two different things. Our belief through Faith in Christ justifies us and we receive that instantaneously upon turning to Christ and Him saving us. Sanctification is a process.. and many (most?) never receive full sanctification. But, that does not make them any less saved. Since God does the saving.. those of whom have belief, faith and trust in Christ, they’re saved. Obedience (or lack thereof) effects our fellowship with God.. not our relationship. It also effects our blessings here in this life.. and our rewards in the next. Heaven is not our reward. Rewards are ‘worked for’ and ‘earned’… Grace / Heaven are Gifts.

    Even God repented on several occasions in the Old Testament.. and He wasn’t ‘repenting of His sins’.. haha! As God does not sin. He changed His mind. Maybe God still repents today, from time to time? If so, I think it may be for our benefit.. or I should say, the benefit of the lost.. allowing them more time, with the hope of them repenting.. changing their mind about themselves and their spiritual condition.. their need for Salvation and a Savior. Thats Biblical Repentance.

    Blessings!

  90. PenguinTodd - September 8, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Margo, I’m not sure you understood my point. You are equating both “committing of sin” and “living in sin” as application to a converted, saved person. As I said, there is confusion about “committing of sin” as a believer versus “living in sin” which is to a non-believer, or a false believer. A person can be justified and still commit sins but they are still justified. The sin in that new state relates to their sanctification or purity ONLY. But, a person who is not justified is “living in sin” and so their sins still stand between them and the path to salvation. The distinction in terminology is related to the state of the person, as to whether they are saved or not saved.

    How are they different? The difference is in the relation between the person and the sin. Per what I wrote earlier, a person who justifies the sin in their life (meaning defends, sees nothing wrong with it, rejects a righteous judgment against the act, normalizes it as everyone does it so what is the problem, etc…). They live according to the flesh. A person born of the Spirit has internal to them a conviction of the sins they commit (guilt, troubled mind, loss of joy of salvation, when called out in that sin will repent of the sin—no I’m not necessarily saying stop doing it, though they might garner strength of faith in time such that they do—but rather meaning acknowledging it as a trespass against God affirming the righteousness of God and the unrighteousness of their ways. The repenting is the change in your mind/heart that leads to the confession or verbalization of the sin before God.

    It speaks to having a regenerated heart. A saved person has a heart for God, for His righteousness. But, that doesn’t mean we don’t still sin. Paul laments about a sin that he can’t shake and that condition is so troubling for him. I too can relate. I look at what Christ did for me, and yet, the flesh is weak. It is shameful to know Christ and yet still fail in a daily walk of righteousness. But, that very state of reflection speaks to a righteous presence, a righteous Spirit. The way of the world would say accept yourself, there isn’t anything wrong with what you do and how you act. But, a Spirit of God knows that it is a sin and a transgression and rejects the act as sin.

    As for marriage and divorce issue you continually bring it up in the discussion. It is an act, one that is forgiven. The person is called to live according to the one they are married. God recognized the prior marriage so the individual in the divorce and subsequent to it in another marriage, committed a sin of adultery. I’ve read some stories where the prior relationship is reconciled and the couple gets remarried. But, if the person has remarried, then the sin of the prior marriage is forgiven and the person is to abide by the new marriage. The prior trespass of divorce and adultery to the first marriage now no longer exists. I suspect you should still be honorable to the prior spouse and be caring and forgiving of the person as well.

    What about murder? Isn’t the person one killed still dead? Doesn’t his blood cry out from the ground every day? No, it is forgiven. God remembers it no more. He does the same with divorce and adultery. You aren’t remarried in God’s eyes, but married. Go and sin no more and honor your spouse and God.

    All I’ll add is that scripture says there is only one unpardonable offense and adultery is not it. So, clearly it is forgiven.

  91. Margo - September 8, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    PenguinTodd : I guess that you’re correct in that, I missed your point. So, basically.. we are saying the same thing. I thought you meant something per a person becoming saved yet, ‘lives in sin’ ie. living together / ‘shacking-up’ without being married, etc.. or someone who fornicates regularly or whatever.. that person is not really saved. Thats what I thought you were saying. I misunderstood.

    And yess, I have brought up the marriage/divorce for reasons other than infidelity/remarriage to another person thingy.. a few times because I don’t think I’ve ever received an answer regarding this issue. And I’m thinking you did not really answer my question about it this time, either. I believe you misunderstood my question. What I said was.. neither of the parties in the first marriage were unfaithful to the other.. but, they’d gotten divorced for some other reason(s). And when either of the two (or both) get married again, to someone else.. doesn’t the Word of God tell us they are living in an adulterous relationship? Some people may deem that as “living in sin”.. just as they would a homosexual relationship.

  92. PenguinTodd - September 9, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    Hey Margo, perhaps I didn’t specifically answer you marriage example. Divorce, do not get married again, but engage in sexual relations with others, unabated. I would call that “living in sin.” They should be called to celibacy if they were in Christ and possibly be called to reconcile their marriages with that prior spouse as well. It would be fornication at best. The same is true for homosexuals.

    It really would come down to the nature of the habit. Habitually? Unabated? Or once in awhile (and what exactly is that), remorsefully and/or with a sense of guilt? See, a person can commit sin and even the same sin while in Christ. But, they can’t have a “love relationship” with that sin and still claim to be in Christ (I’ll note that as per my understanding).

    Others, as it is amply displayed in comments here even, share a different view. Namely that all sin places us into an unsaved condition. But, is that scriptural in respect to Christ? Does sin wield the same power to those in Christ as those not in Christ? I say not. Others of course say yes.

    Fundamentally, this speaks to the very heart of understanding Christ, His sacrifice, what happened at the cross and our forgiveness.

    Specifically, my understanding would be that if sin still wields power over those in Christ then how can it be said that Christ has victory of death and sin at the cross?

    The bible says Christ defeated sin and death. You aren’t justified by “your righteous while in the body of Christ,” but justified by the righteous of Christ to which you were purchased into the body of Christ by the shedding of the blood of Christ. The claim for your death for the sins you committed while in the body of Christ can’t be taken up with you anymore but rather it has to be taken up with your master. Your master is Christ. And, He says sin and death have no claim to make. Why? Because He paid the debt already.

    As for sinning, the problem is that we are in Spirit but still in flesh and the flesh profits nothing. Even Christ had to bring his body (flesh) into obedience in the wilderness. That He did so is an amazing accomplishment in itself. For us the flesh already knows sin and is desirous of its old buddy and friend. Our flesh is corruptible and as such it will be turn back to dust. That is why we are to get a new body– a new body that is not corruptible and knows no sin.

    Until then we are called to bring our mind and body into obedience while in the body of Christ. Blessings flow from a walk of obedience, it is the sanctification process and our rewards in Heaven and closeness to God in Spirit depends on this. Paul is animate about not just settling for being in the race (salvation/justification) but that we “run a good race.” To reach for the gold if you will. We do this as testimony of thanks for what Jesus did for us on the cross and for good works/rewards and for credibility to minister His word in the world so that others might be drawn to Christ through the outflow of the Spirit that resides in us. In short we are the new arc that houses the Spirit of God. We should go before the world to bring victory and win souls in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. We do this all for the Glory of God and not to the glory of men.

    Blessings.

  93. Margo - September 9, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    PenguinTodd : OK.. here is my question again, rephrased : You and your wife are Christians.. and you get divorced for reasons OTHER THAN INFIDELITY.. and you find someone else, fall in love and get married to that person. Are you living in sin.. being that the Word of God tells us that anyone who does that is considered as an adulterer.. and the person they marry is the very same?

  94. Margo - September 9, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Dave : “being a slave to Christ” is NOT Biblical. You’re speaking of consecration, which is Biblical.. but, does not effect a persons Salvation. It effects their rewards and it effects their blessings here in this life. Christ did it all. He was the ‘slave’ in so that we do not have to be. the burden of our sins rest upon Christ.. not ourselves.. for those in Him.

  95. PenguinTodd - September 9, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Margo, I believe I answered that in the September 8th post, or at least I thought that I did but perhaps it wasn’t communicated well.

    Just because you are in Christ doesn’t mean you are infallible, in capable of committing a sin. Satan tempted Christ while he was in flesh, how much more will he tempt us who have already fallen to the temptations of sin? If they are in Christ, then they have committed a sin and it is forgiven them because they have Christ to atone for the sin.

    If they are false believers or false Christians, if you prefer, or non-believers then they are living in sin because they don’t have Christ to atone for the sin. It is still upon them.

    It depends on the truthfulness of their hearts in Christ. I cannot speak to which is their condition. Neither could Paul per 1 Corinthians, but it is a very troubling condition so it must be address. Further, the church should address it. They should be called to confess this sin and reaffirming their devotion to Christ and not the flesh. Or, admit they didn’t truthful come to Christ in the first place. This is what Paul is dealing with in 1 Corinthians: an ongoing sexual immorality; in the church no less!

  96. Dave - September 10, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    I would argue that a person who can go through the entire process of divorce without comming into contact with severe pressure from their conscience might very likely NOT be saved to begin with. Thus they have bigger problems than a divorce.

    A divorce is not just falling into sin, and failing to stand against temptation. It takes planning, hiring a lawyer, going through the process of getting forms, etc etc. This isn’t something you just go “oops” about. Someone who has truely commited their life to Christ will likely be shredded prior to getting far enough along in the divorce process for this question to be relivent.

    BTW, yes being a slave to Christ is biblical. Do a real study and you will uncover it. In fact I saw a good sermon on it. In fact, here… I’m not going to quote it all when you can get an entire sermon on it by a much more educated man than me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO_6g3QHxR4&app=desktop

    God Bless

  97. penguintodd - September 11, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Dave, I agree with you about not being saved and I believe Paul does too. (I like the comment that this isn’t an “oops” moment.) I believe this was his point in 1 Corinthians. The actions were so troubling that one’s very salvation must be questioned (though we are not to leap to judgment that one is not saved). Consequently, he goes to a great length to bring up the commitment to Christ, in effect witnessing to the individual again and to the church as well.

  98. ronnie - September 11, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    i dont see how people dont take the word of god as his actual words. 2 peter 1:21 for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of god spake as they were moved by the holy ghost. now, my wife wants me to move my bedroom around..this here is gonna be a physical act its gonna be a little tiresome….but im going to physically move the room around. god can we say physically, spiritually moved these men to write what he told them to write? so who in HELL do you think you are to debunk anything that a holy man of god said? you referred to scripture to back up your ideologies, but, disagreed with the author of this pages scriptures that he used. sounds like to me someones trying to create confusion amongst men. II samuel 23:2 the spirit of the lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. i take gods words for what they are there is no mystery, why make it a mystery. we got this saying that we like to say where im from…it is what it is….my god is unchangeable so why are we constantly trying to change him and his word? revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. deuteronomy 4:2
    Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. so we must be very careful the way we reword gods words through our own opinions!!! if we cant hear what the lord is saying then we must remain silent. we cannot teach gods children our opinions we have to take god for what he said not for what we think he means when he said what he said. someone is afraid that their goin to hell! probably but im not god…its by his grace through your faith…but if everybody said god surely you can forgive me !…will he forgive everybody? he is a just god..he cant let satan and his fallen angels in heaven…why do we expect him to? there is no sugarcoating it … i think my man couldnt have said it any better….2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    Romans 6:1-23
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. need i say more? we have to repent meaning…..TURN AWAY FROM OUR SINS…we cannot entertain our sins anymore. being saved does not stop your appetite for sin however when we sin immediately we must ask for forgiveness and dont look back…we cant expect a just god to bring chaos into his kingdom cause if he let ray ray and them up there when ray ray was rapin babies and didnt stop raping babies died raping babies then surely he can let me in there for hurting this temple he gave me by indulging in drugs till i die that just wouldnt be fair god…if ray ray goin to heaven then im comin god….FOOLISH MEN ….FAITHLESS MEN..STOP MOCKIN MY GOD OR TO HELL WITH YOU ALL…REPENT OR DIE…

  99. Margo - September 12, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    PenguinTodd.. thank you.. and I concur 🙂

    Dave : I disagree per divorce. Real Christian people get divorced. Also, being a slave to Christ is utterly UNbiblical. The term “slave/slaves” is in the Word of God but, twice.. Jeremiah and Revelation.. neither of which speaks any such thing as being a slave to Christ.

    Respectfully, I seriously think you should REconsider your source per this issue. It has been stated (many times) that John MacArthur is a heretic. No one was suggesting that everything he teaches is wrong.. but, when it comes to the Word of God and His truths, it all should be taught correctly and accurately. One subtle ‘detail’ in error, makes it no longer the Word of God. JM is an Armenian who teaches ‘works’ Salvation.

    Blessings!

  100. penguintodd - September 12, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    From the King James:

    John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Ephesians 1:13-14: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Ephesians 2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

  101. ronnie - September 12, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    here we see scripture that backs up both sides of the debate..clearly yahweh said once your saved your saved. and, he dont tolerate willful sin and that there is a sin unto death so which one is it? my god is not a god of confusion! so this is what the holy spirit that lives in me reveals to me. whatever hes convicting you of is your conviction. whatever jes convicting me of is my convictions. i would like to think i have a personal relationship with yahweh that is not identical to yalls relationship with him. for there are some people who died without half this truth revealed to them and i think god chose it that way. but i believe once he take the wool off your eyes the cloak or whatever… then you are accountable for your sins. people like to believe that there are different levels in heaven. like im goin to get judged for all the sins ive committed in my body and be set in some position in heaven. like a lower rank like instead of setting at the picnic table drinking lemonade im going to be mowing grass. lol maybe…ive never been to heaven i wouldnt know. i would love to believe that i wouldnt be condemned for my sins. but, the wages of sin is death. spiritually!..how can anyone believe that our heavenly father would allow you to constantly spit in his face and mock him and theres no consequences?…some sayt people that would do that then they were never saved…well im here to tell you 90 percent of the world does that everyday so its alot of unsaved people in this world…basically let me change that everybody not 90 percent ..everybody…to teach that its alright to go along in sin is heresie ….its okay i spit in gods face everyday…he loves it when i abuse him!!! im here to tell you i love my children would even give my life for them but if my son came through my door everyday and spit in my face and disrespect me violently i wouild put him away from me…i do not have to tolerate this…we are the creation ..to boldly go against the creator by willfully sinning is disgraceful…you people who sin wilfully constantly is bringin shame on my father and the death of his son..i figured not to use scripture because the majority of yall is just using your opinion as well…i like to think that my opinion is inspired by god…he said TURN from your wicked ways…he also said if you dont warn a wicked man from his wicked way ways that man will die in his sin…if you know that god dont take pleasure in homosexuality…just an example…then why would you practice it? if there is levels in heaven i guess they gonna be diggin ditches or far more worse than that…how can you say that you are a child of god and teach idiodicy?…why…do we not remember why moses was left in the wilderness ?…they say the only prayer that god can hear from a sinner is a prayer of forgiveness,,but he heard is people he heard their afflictionsurely all of them wasnt saved…surely all of them didnt believe or did they?…god wants your unconditional love and respect..when we sin we blatantly disrespect him..once again..why would we anger him?…god is a jealous god…but we serve more than one master we worship the things that our hands made…someone said something about a christmas gift..you people actually believe that this is the lords birthday?….how much did he reveal to you?…and i keep hearing yall call him jesus…jesus is a greek name mary was HEBREW the angel would have gave her a hebrew name for her son considering she spoke hebrew…there was no j in the hebrew language so how could that have been his name?…we just adopted the j in the english language in the 15 or 16 hundreds…i have a 1611 bible and in it its iesous …and theres no j so why arent we calling him that name?….you poeple is makin my lord grieve because my spirit feels it…your gonna fight for your right to party…really?….you can say what you wanna say believe what you wanna believe…in the day of judgement thats when we will all find out…im not gonna listen to yall…cause what would it hurt to try to live righteously…and i dont feel like im under no bondage because i wanna live right by god…thats not makin me feel unconfortable…sin now that makes me feel uncomfortable so go ahead and light your cigarettes up put some ice in your martini abuse an animal and a child because your saved hey kill your self youll be forgiven…go ahead…remember jesus said you cant be plucked out of his hand…who are we to say who is saved and who aint saved you cant say he aint saved cause he flew an airplane into a building…saved people dont do that no he couldnt have been saved…!!! aint no sin greater than the other …so whether i kill 5 million people or still 5 million pieces of gum it all weighs the same…thats the ideaologies of satanists….mister aleister crowley and anton lavey…do what thou wilt?….hey follow your heart..even though a mans heart is evil follow it…its only evil continuously…so to know that i have an evil heart and i am saved by grace im gonna do everything in my flesh to respect love and honor my father who art in heaven hallwed be his name thy kingdom come thy will be done… not i his will…and i sense that his will is not to do all those things he said not to do…im not gonna make excuses so i can sin…im not going to change god just to make him conveneient for my lifestyle..im going to change my lefestyle…jesus said deny yourself..meaning deny your flesh…from the things that offends him …you people do christmas your practicing a lie teaching your children a lie…full well ye reject the commandments of god so you may hold on to your own traditions…im not perfect…thru the blood i am…but if god removed the blood and seen some of the heiness things we would all be deserving of hell…so why dont we just clean it up a little bit…sweep it up…if you was renting a house you would have to give a security deposit…if the landlord came there when u was movin out and it was graffitti all over the wall…with dog poop all over the floor and broken out panels in the cieling…you not gonna get that security deposit back you may even be prosecuted…god lives in this temple…it is his temple and i will not hoard filth in it…common sense you dont need bible scripture to teach you to not disrespect the owner of your temple by filling it full of filth…are we foolish? come on…”but jesus said i could keep a coup[le porno books in this house so ima do just that i mean i can get away with it” thats the same thing the fda told me when i had bugs in my rice a roni!..well we are allowed to allow some insects in the food..it travels on a freight train you might get a millworm or 2 we cant help that…well i dont eat rice a roni no more cause they cant help that..but you can…help god help you by turning away from your sins if you wanna gt to heaven…if these people are right about salvation then jeffrey dahmer got saved before he died…maybe in heaven he will take you out to eat…or he will have you for dinner…be real..god will not be mocked foolish antigod…

  102. Bill of Reading PA - September 14, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    If you read Romans 8:35-39 real closely, Paul seems to stop slightly but significantly short of ruling out the possibility that WE OURSELVES might use our free will to sever ourselves from our salvation. And if you read Galatians closely it says we are saved by faith and then KEPT saved by this same faith; it does not say we are saved by faith and that’s it for good. And you are right in that there are abundant verses that talk about the eternal dangers of falling away & I’d say too many to just be teaching something hypothetical that never actually occurs. Throughout the Bible you see that God is far more practical than theoretical.

  103. PenguinTodd - September 15, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    Romans 8:35–39
    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
    “For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
    we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    How can this need to be anymore explicit? …WE ARE MORE THAN CONQUERORS THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US. …NOR ANYTHING ELSE IN ALL CREATION…
    If it wasn’t specifically mentioned, then anything that remained was covered by the phrase “anything else in creation.” The only thing not in creation is God, and He said He would never abandon us nor forsake us (Deuteronomy 31:8, Joshua 1:5, Hebrews 13:5).

    John 6:28-29
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    John 6:28-29
    “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent.”

    Romans 5:18-19
    “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

    We are made righteousness by the obedience of Christ. We are called to believe on the one God sent; the Messiah sent by God.

    John 6:28-29

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    There is security because the security comes via God’s word, His Promise and Christ is the one written about in regards to that promise. Salvation is the free gift that GOD GIVES to whosoever believes.

    God never fails nor is there any falsehood by Him. The only issue that remains is your belief. Do you believe? What do you believe, who do you believe in? If you believe the Gospel then you have eternal life. The only way you don’t have eternal life is to not believe. To not believe is to have ZERO, NONE, ZILCH belief, this is UNBELIEF.

    Thus, my point which has been the entirety of all my posts on here: How can you be both a believer who has salvation but not a believer such that you don’t have salvation or lose it?

    What shall we say that you can dupe God into falsely evaluating your belief? That He would give you the gift of salvation as a “believer” only to discover later that you don’t believe and so you lose your salvation? The point I make is you are or you aren’t. You are a believer in Christ, trust in him and God’s promise and thus have salvation. Or fundamentally you don’t believe and so you don’t have salvation.

  104. PenguinTodd - September 15, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Correction: some of the references didn’t post right. They should be the following:

    1 John 1:9
    John 3:16.

    Blessings.

  105. Don L - September 22, 2012 at 5:37 am

    Salvation is “by grace through faith,it is not of ourselves, not of works, lest we would boast. We are His workmanship in Christ Jesus unto good works… Eph 2:8-10
    Grace is favor we do not deserve,have not worked for or earned. If we work for it to get it or to keep it then is is not by grace.
    Faith is exercised once and we are saved. If we must be faithful, to remain saved then that is by works.
    Once we have faith in Christ we are saved by what He has done (paid for our sins when He died and rose again to show that He had truly paid for our sins). Once having had faith, I am saved. I am born into God’s family. I receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
    Jesus died for all my sins not just those I comitted before I was saved. If I sin as a believer is am out of fellowship with God but not our of His family. Having been born into His family, I cannot be unborn. The prodigal son, though out of fellowship with his father was still his son. See 1John 1:9 (this is the forgiveness of fellowship, I alreadly have the forgiveness of salvation)
    Once I have faith in Christ God’s promises take over and keep me saved. Getting saved does not depend on some work that I do and staying saved does not depend on any work that I do or do not do.
    Jesus said “He that believes on Me has eternal life.” How long is eternal life. If is life that has no end, it is forever. If it lasts until I sin then it was not eternal, it was temporary.
    Jesus said that those who beleive on Him have eternal life and have passed from death to life. Having passed from death to life I cannot go back to death.
    What sin can I commit that Jesus did not pay for? None! He paid for them all. So any sin I commit, cannot send me to Hell because Jesus already paid for that sin. If I commit a sin that I can go to Hell for then Jesus did not pay for that sin. If He paid for all my sin then I cannot go to Hell because that sin is paif for. If Jesus did not pay for my sin then what sacrifice will pay for my sin?? There, then would be not sacrifice for that sin and I could not be saved and I would go to Hell. Jesus paid it all.
    Should I sin then? No I am to live a righteous life not to get saved or to stay saved but because I am saved. Eph 2:10 We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works that God has before ordained that we should walk in them.”
    Since God promises eternal life, not that I might get it some day, but that I have it now then I can never perish. I am saved and secure because God has promised it. He cannot go beck on His promise. I cannot give up or give it back. God’s promise is still in control. He has given me eternal life and I shall never perish. John 3:16

  106. Don L - September 22, 2012 at 7:06 am

    Gal 5:4 “fallen from grace”
    Fallen from grace does not mean that one has lost their salvation by some sin.
    Please note that this verse says “you who attempt to be justified by law; you are fallen from grace. It does not say “you who sin are fallen from grace”; it sayd “you who area attempting to be justifyed by the Law, you are fallen from grace.
    Those who are trying to be justified by the Law are fallen from grace because if I am trying to be justifed by the law I am trying to get, by keeping the law what I already have by grace. I am justified by grace. I cannot be justified by the Law.
    Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
    If this verse means that I have sinned bacause I am not keeping the law perfectly then all of us are fallen from grace.
    If I am trying to be justified by the Law then I am trying to keep the Law so I can be justified. Since I am already justififed by grace then I am trying to get something that I already have. In this sense I have fallen away from grace, that is, I have forgotten that I am already justified by grace and trying to get justified. To forget or to not understand that I am justified by grace is falling away from grace. It is a failure to understand what I have in Christ and try to get what I alread have by grace, by doing works. Salvation is by works.
    Those who had fallen from grace were still saved but they had been misinformed and had forgotten that they were justified by grace. The were still justified by grace and still saved but were igonorant what the fillness of grace.
    Being ignorant of some of what I have in Christ does not cause me to be lost.
    This verse teaches tha we are saved by grace and cannot be lost even though we do not fully understand what we havein Christ.

  107. Don L - September 23, 2012 at 6:28 am

    2. If I “sin willfully” after I have received the knowledge of the truth there is no more sacrifice for sin. If this means that one can lose thier salvation then it also means that they cannot get it back again, because there is no more sacrifice for sin. If the sacrifice of Jesus did not cover my sin then no other sacrifice can. Jesus cannot be sacrificed again for my sin.
    The verse actually means that If I have received the knowledge of the truth, that is, if someone tells me about the truth that is in Jesus and I sin wilfilly by rejecting that truth there is nothing else that can save me. There is no other way to be saved.
    So this does not have to do with one losing their salvation but rejecting the gospel message.

  108. Don L - September 23, 2012 at 6:33 am

    3. This is similar to #2 in that is is talking about a person who has escaped the pollutions of the world by the knowledge of Jesus Christ not by having receiven Him.
    So a person who has heard the message and gone along with it and has not been saved will fall away and becomeentangled in the world again.
    Again this is not talking about a person loosing their salvation.

  109. Don L - September 23, 2012 at 6:41 am

    4. Paul is reminding them that they were delivered from sin by faith in Jesus Christ and the result is that sin does not have dominion over them any more. I sin still has dominion over someone to the extent that they continue to practice such sinful behaviour then they are not truly saved.
    Paul is tellling them not to be deceived in thinking that those who practice such sins are truly saved. They are not.

  110. Don L - September 23, 2012 at 6:45 am

    5. Christ said of these who said Lord, Lord did we not do… They did not say Lord, Lord did we not believe…
    They said they had cast out demons in His name but Jesus said “depart from me I NEVER knew you”. Jesus did not say I once know you but now I don’t.
    These are then obviously not saved persons and never were.

  111. Don L - September 23, 2012 at 6:49 am

    A sin unto death can be comitted by a believer, like Annanias and Saphira did. The committed the sin of lying to the Holy Spirit and were struck dead. It is not said that they lost their salvation, neither does this verse. If you sin greviously enough God may take you home.
    A true beleiver has eternal life. Jesus said “I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. So anyone who has eternal life can not lose it because it is eternal and they cannot perish because Jesus said so.

  112. Don L - September 23, 2012 at 7:08 am

    7. The book of life is the book of the living. It is a book that has everyone who is living in it. If I die then I am taken out of the book of life.
    Moses wanted God to kill him instead of the people who had sinned. God would not because we all die because of our sins. God would not kill Moses because the people had sinned.
    If a believer who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (and we all are) can lose their salvation and goes to Hell, since God said “I will never leave you or forsake you”, will God go to Hell with them??? NO! A true believer cannot lose thier salvation and cannot ever go to Hell.
    We have eternal life and will never perish!!!! IF a believer goes to Hell then God and Jesus are liars!!!!! John 3:16
    If I believe and therefore receive eternal life and will never perish according to God’s promise and then stop believing, God’s promise is still in effect. I am not saved by being faithful (that is a work). Once having exercised faith God’s promise takes effect. It is any eternal, unalterable, unconditional, irrevocable promise. He says “i will for no reason case you out”. He will not cast us out even if we stop believing.

  113. Margo - September 24, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    **7. The book of life is the book of the living. It is a book that has everyone who is living in it. If I die then I am taken out of the book of life.**

    When a person is born, his / her name is recorded into the Book of Life (which is not the same as the ‘Lambs Book of Life’)… and should that person pass away without Christ, his / her name is blotted from the Book of Life. Per the Lambs Book of Life.. its a recording of everyone who has become to know and receive Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Names, once recorded in the Lambs Book of Life are not blotted out.

    Blessings!

  114. ronnie - September 28, 2012 at 12:38 am

    this is a statement that i prepared for a sunday school teacher. you know the god you worship by the day you worship on..SUN-day …day of the sun. james 2:14-26 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    you should have learned from this verse..in order to have faith one must have works.faith without works is dead..but here u are after clearly demeanering me and blowing me off as a creature less than you by giving me scripture such as 2 peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction….i use gods word..scripture..your argument isnt with me its with god…you said that faith is all you need to obtain grace?…lets see what the lord said….grace is mentioned 170 times in the kjv bible…the first time its mentioned is in genesis 6:8 but noah found grace in the eyes of the lord…the next verse reads that he was a just man…a righteous man..why was he perfect in his generation? he walked with god …to walk with god one must be godly..to be godly one must not sin right? isaiah 59:1-2 Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. so sin can seperate you from your god…just like it did to adam..so if noah walked with god then he wasnt seperated from god..so that means he didnt sin..let me keep it basic cause some of yall still need to feed on breastmilk yall cant have no meat just yet…sin breaks the fellowship with god..you cannot walk with the light if you live in darkness…1 john 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin…you see its simple..”walk in the light”..only then will his son cleanse us from all sin…thats right!..ALL OUR SINS..yesterdays, todays, and tomorrows…1 john 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us….if were not right with god ..if we dont walk with god..and work for god we will always sin..cleanse (to make clean)..so i guess thats why they say cleanliness is next to godliness..he wants to clean us and keepp us clean…so noah was JUST (righteous)….and perfect..integrity truth without blemish…its no wonder why god found favor in noah..he did all the things that delighted god..he kept gods commandments…1 john 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abidethin him oughthimself also so to walk , even as he walked “WALK”.. to move or cause to move along on foot at a natural slow pace..stay with me…”WORK” .. the use of a persons strength or ability in order to get something done or get some desired result: LABOR……..SO WOULD YOU SAY WALKING PRODUCES WORK…..yes it produces labor so one must labor to enjoy his fruits if we dont labor to produce fruit we will be burned..john 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. so we must talk the talk and walk the walk..how did the son of god walk?…you need to know this so you can walk with him..did he walk in sin?…i dont think so!..james 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves…how does one be a doer of the word? well the word was god…john 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. so we must do the WILL of god not our own will…thy will be done…whatever he said to do we must do it..old things are become new…so we have to become a new creature in christ…let that old man go.. he died with christ…a doer of god…if were not a doer of god then were the doer of who?….everything has an opposite..stay with me…there care alot of things god said do and dont do…we cant decide what we want to do and still expect grace…we ought to have faith..in order to get grace…and faith without works is DEAD so is your faith witjout your spirit…im here to tell you that the flesh affects the spirit and the spirit affects the flesh gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would…so if we willfully sin in the flesh it can affect your spirit…and if you cannot do what god said to do then he does not live in you..so do we do or dont do all the things god said do……oh ye of little faith or works…you will know a man of god from his WORKS ..it will show who or what his faith lies in…so if your practicing that lie on xmas and giving our children that dangerous false assurance that they can sin as they will and god wont mind…he does not abide in you!…he is not the father of a lie..galations 5:5 for we through the spirit wait for the HOPE of righteousness by faith….galations 6:5-8 For every man shall bear his own burden.

    6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting….1 cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall….FROM GRACE PEOPLE…10:13 THE NEXT VERSE TELL ME i dont have to sin theres a way out i can escape
    with the help of god…so its goin to be not as hard to say no…its my choice but god promised …key them word promised..meaning if we do right we have a promise for the future of what he will do for us…he promised us eternal life as a rewarding type of gift..1 john 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. james 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to that love him. key word LOVE him…if we really love him we would keep his commandments…john 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments..how many people everyday say they know and love god? Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men…yall still have church on sunday! and party on saturday…and have christmas easter halloween birthdays and many many more pagan rituals and customs and traditions…that is not gods commandment..only time birthdays are mentioned in the bible is 3 times and they all was celebrated by men that was not holy men..none of gods holy men celebrated their birthdays..because its not gods commandment so why do it?…we do it because its our tradition..its traditional to light a cake and worship someone other than god…mark 7:9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

  115. ronnie - September 29, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    And we do hold on to our own traditions and this is why Gal 5:19-26 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another so these are the work of the flesh and the spirit so can we be condemned because of the works of the flesh? I think so its common sense so dont listen to them that say your alright, youll wake up in hell. sin unto death wow if i sin then god will kill my flesh and bring me home thats not bad i should run out and sin right now!some poeple must really love their life john 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.satan is really trying to water down yah words.I would rather be with god than be in this flesh i guess thats what happens when you are a new creature in christ.so stop telling people its ok to sin proverbs 16:17 17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud. key words depart from evil.not to be like preacher pauley and say evil is good.act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: all men every where.get it all men including you.this is a command from yah.to turn away from our sins. repent: to feel sorrow for one’s sin and make up one’s mind to do what is right. not wrong. dont make excuses on why you sin…well i have an advocate with the father intercessor like a lawyer.its going to be hard to plead your case if your wrong with the evidence against you.2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ( 6:1-6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    3 And this will we do, if God permit.
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. the son of god died to set us free from the power of sin not so we can sin freely. “stop playin” rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. overcome what? temptation to sin wilfully ( 21:27 ) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. do you seek yah? are after the things of this world? this debate is not if you can lose your savation but rather are you doing your part so you can receive this gift? are you really saved? how much faith do you really have? God knows because of your works so show your faith by your works because satan worshippers believe in god but there works are far from godly, anti God. and ill leave you with this: matt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    0

  116. Margo - September 30, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Ronnie says : “this debate is not if you can lose your savation but rather are you doing your part so you can receive this gift? are you really saved? how much faith do you really have? God knows because of your works so show your faith by your works because satan worshippers believe in god but there works are far from godly, anti God. and ill leave you with this: matt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

    Margo’s response : Ronnie, “doing our part” in so to receive this Gift, is turning to Jesus Christ in totally unwavering belief on, faith in, trust in HIM and in HIM ONLY for our ETERNAL SALVATION.

    “Believing in” and “believing on” are (could be) two different things. While the Word of God tells us to believe in Christ / the name of Christ, etc.. many take it as “well, I believe in God, I must be saved.” Whereas, we surely will believe in Christ.. as to say, we believe that He exists, is a good start.. but, believing ‘on’ suggests that we are indeed saved. We BELIEVE firstly.. through Faith.. then comes trust. Yes, even satanists believe IN Christ.. satan himself, knows the absolute truths of the Word of God. But, its his job to cause confusion and distortion.. and to work through whomever will tend to complicate the Word of God.. whether its intended or not. Contextual reading and study of Gods Word is paramount for accurate knowledge and understanding. The Bible ‘reads’ lots of things its not actually saying.

    Respectively, you are suggesting a “WORKS” SALVATION.. which is contrary to Gods Word. Christ died for us while we were still yet, sinners. We turn to Him when we are lost sinners.. and He saves us when we are in that very condition. And He is the One who does the saving.. ALL of it. We cannot save ourselves.. nor can we do anything to lose our Salvation. All we did was BELIEVE on Him in order to be saved.. so, what can we do in so to become UN-saved? And I am speaking of those of whom have continued to believe on Christ.. no matter how they may present themselves to others. We SHOULD do lots of things per being Born-Again Christians.. that we don’t always do. And vice-versa. Whether we stand true to OUR WORD or not, is one thing. Yes, we should.. but, we don’t always. However, God ALWAYS stands true to His Word. We turn to Him in belief on Him for Salvation and forgiveness of sins, He saves us.. and He maintains that Salvation. After all, He designed it.. its His Divine Plan.. not our own. We trust in Him to do what He says.. no matter what.

    Blessings!

  117. PenguinTodd - October 1, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    The problem with understanding “works” per James in regards to salvation is that some believe it to be prior to salvation and thus necessary in order to BECOME saved. This is known as Works Salvation.

    Others (including myself) understand James as making it clear that SALVATION (or justification) is prior to works. Only when we are IN CHRIST can we then do “works.” The “works” is reflective of sanctification and repentance from sin. Only after we get saved do we pull near to Christ and away from our old sin nature. Thus, in James 2:18 about showing his works he is saying my works testify for me and not just because I say so. The works or sanctification stands as our testimony to others as the salvation truth of God and Jesus Christ.

    What better example than Paul. This was a guy who was known to be a murder of Christians and now here he is preaching that very Gospel. The works of Paul preaching the Gospel and suffering for doing so serves as testimony of the truth of the Gospel and salvation from believing in Lord Jesus Christ.

    If we don’t have works or sanctification, that is the pulling away from our old sin ways, then our justification and salvation before God should be viewed as in serious doubt. This is per Paul saying we need to test ourselves (2 Corinthians 13:5-14).

    Again, understand no where is it being taught that you get saved and then can freely sin away into heaven. That is a false believer and a false salvation message. *** This is not what is being taught in the refutation of “losing ones salvation.” ***

    This is a common misunderstanding and false criticism of salvation post justification versus the promoting of salvation post sanctification.

    Is sanctification necessary? Yes! Why? Because it serves as testimony that the truth is in us (1 John 1:5-7). But we cannot say we are without sin because we are flesh that needs to be made pure by the work of the Holy Spirit (1 John 1:8).

    Justification and sanctification are linked in that each speaks to the truth of the other. If you are missing justification then you can’t be brought to sanctification because purity from sins comes from God and not of you. If you are missing sanctification then what testimony other than you’re own word do you have that you are made right or justified before God? To which James says, I’ll show you my works!

    Our faith, our salvation, our justification, our sanctification are ALL dependent upon the work of God’s grace, Christ going to the cross and bring the truth via the Gospel, and of the Holy Spirit. It is not by our hands or “our works.” But the work of the God in us.

  118. Allison - October 30, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    Woah buddy! You got his all wrong!!! Romans 8:38-39, Luke 10:25-28, and John 10:28-30… Go home and read them! Once saved, always saved!

  119. Unknown Warrior - November 9, 2012 at 10:09 am

    PenguinTodd is right.

    There are many Christians who don’t realize they’re trying to complete What God has already completed towards our salvation.

    In essence you don’t really have Faith that you’re saved by grace and hence try to partially work it out.

    That is the problem.
    This is the problem with self.
    You’re always looking towards yourself rather to Christ Jesus.

  120. Steve Sterling - January 1, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    Loosing your salvation is not a matter of whether God takes it from you or not but a matter of your state of mind. God has given us His salvation freely through His Son Jesus Christ and therefore will not take it away from us. Like Satan we can choose to rebel and fall into an irredeemable state of condemnation without any hope of being restored. In describing the hopeless state of the person who, having received great light, fall back into condemnation, the apostle Paul made the following statement:

    ” For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Heb. 6:2-4

    Therefore your loss of salvation is solely dependent on the choice you make. In this regard the apostle issued further warning:

    “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” Heb. 10:38

  121. Jessica. - February 8, 2013 at 5:51 am

    Have I commited this sin that leads to death with no hope?

    I gave into temptation. I was saved when I was 10, i’m 21 now. Jesus’s third temptation in the desert. I thought the thought and now I live in agony because I didn’t think Jesus was my king.

    I was sexually abused as a child and I’ve had struggles all my life with doubt, worry and anxiety.

    Am I lost forever or can Jesus forgive me?

    Is there any hope for me?? Or did the devil set out what he wanted to do when I was 6 and destroy me? Am I a goner. I feel so hopeless.

    Can God’s grace cover my tempation sin?

  122. Tim Crist - February 15, 2013 at 10:15 am

    I read the first part (A falling away) and right there I want to comment.
    you are interpreting this wrong in my opinion…..You are missing the mark.
    To renew them again to repentance means once a Believer that we can’t nor do we need TO RENEW AGAIN TO REPENTANCE…key word here is AGAIN.
    once we have believed we are sealed into the family of God as the body of Christ…God is not an Indian giver in giving you something and then taking it away…that doesn’t agree with his character.
    Basically saying we can’t be born again after we have already accepted the work of Jesus Christ substitutionary work on the cross for ALL sins. (Salvation) it is IMPOSSIBLE at this point since we have already believed.
    We do as Christians have to confess our sins daily, hourly, or even more frequently if we need to….this is so we can stay in union with Christ or in temporal fellowship with Christ….its simple, I explain this with the Cross and 2 circles….Temporal fellowship and Eternal fellowship.
    ALL sins are Equal in the eyes of God, we as humans want to put a degree of sins saying that one is more evil or worse than the other, because in reality we want to judge them. But they are ALL the same…Christ Died for ALL sins for those who believe (the Believers) he didn’t die just some of them
    ………come on man

    now I might read on and comment again but I had to stop right there and right the wrong.

  123. James - February 18, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    Tim – where do you come up with “ALL sins are Equal in the eyes of God”. That is a false teaching and never quoted in the Bible.

    I read more people speaking their opinion than quoting the Word of God. Any believer who “correctly handles the Word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine. 2 Timothy 2:15 “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of Truth.”

    Old Testament

    If all sins are equal, then the penalty for each sin would be the same. In fact, it was not. Read Leviticus chapter 15:22 “sin of ignorance” versus chapter 25:1 when “the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab”. The sin of ignorance was atoned by an offering, the latter was death to every man joined unto Baalpeor. Quite different sins.

    Psalm 19:13 “Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.” Not all sins are great transgressions.

    New Testament

    Matthew 12:31-32

    (31)”Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

    One sin shall be forgiven. The other shall not.

    John 19:11 (The Lord Jesus speaking to Pontius Pilate)

    “Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.”

    Not all sins are equal in the Eyes of God.

  124. Beverly Angermeier - February 24, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    if they fall away it is impossible to renew them unto saLvation. that's just talking hypothetically it means if it were possible. but its not possible to lose your salvation.JESUS said I will never leave you nor forsake you.no matter what! if there was a sin so great you could commit after you become a CHRISTIAN. that would cause you to lose your salvation.how could any of us be saved in the first place then? so to say you can lose your salvation is to say JESUS BLOOD cant wash away every sin and that is nonsense! JESUS died for all sins not just a few! GOD says I give unto them eternal life not kinda sorta eternal life. NO! ETERNAL LIFE!

  125. Lyn Barclay-Edwards - March 2, 2013 at 11:12 am

    I don't believe that you can lose your salvation. On the cross Jesus said Ït is finished". There was nothing else that was to be done to effect our salvation. If there is ANYTHING that you or I can do to effect our salvation then that is works, and the Bible says we are saved by grace not works. Is there really a sin that the blood of Jesus can't cover? His finished work isn't enough for some circumstances? I think it is blasphemous for us to suggest that we are greater than God and are able to put the finished work of Jesus to shame. Since when are there big sins and little sins? I have been taught that in God's eyes any sin can keep us from heaven. At the point of salvation Was your sin forgiven once and for all? Jesus prayed 'all those you have given me, I will lose none.'

  126. Larris Franklin - March 11, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    You either believe the complete Word of God or you don't. There are so many scriptures that tells you to stay in the will of God but there are so many scriptures that tells you that you can take yourself away, or give up / become lost and in need of God forgiveness. It's in the Bible, believe it or not. It is your choose to chose either way but one thing that is for sure God will not change His Word for anyone. You will have to take it as it is.

  127. Laurie Holdridge - March 18, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    I believe if a christian willfully denounces there is a god and has no need for a savior or his word after he confesses salvation can lose their salvation. Yes, one could argue this person was ever saved in the first place, but if you publicly are baptized and confess your salvation and beliefs and then turn away……….We all have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of GOD yes! However if we willfully continue in these sins and I think the key is " continue" in these sins after the sin has been revealed, not just thinking of them or trying them, you could lose your salvation. If it is true you cannot lose your salvation, then there would be no need for a heaven nor a hell, because we would all be justified by the cross. All of us would be in heaven.

  128. Laurie Holdridge - March 18, 2013 at 6:02 pm

    Romans 11:11-35 would be another point of vue. We all have to remember that these are just opinions on the page, none of us will know the truth till God reveils himself through His Holy Spirit and His word or maybe not till the end. May GOD Be the GLory

  129. Carter - March 18, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    I believe salvation is available to all who ABIDE in Christ. I personally do not believe “once saved, always saved”. But I do know that that phrase will hold true if you totally 100 percent live acording to the 613+ commandments that are given to you. Yes you always fall short, but knowing that your sin is indeed a sin and yet still doing it every day and expecting forgiveness and a ticket to heaven is just wrong. If I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, which I have truthfull and publically done, but yet i still hang out in bars, have sex with every hooker i can find, throw my bible back on the shelf to collect dust and never attend another church service are you going to tell me I will be gladly taken into heaven? I think not. John 15 verses 1-7 clearly stated that Jesus Christ himself did not believe once saved always saved. Taking that phrase out of context and going too far with it is making God out to who you want Him to be. Is that not an abomination to the Lord? A lot of “professing christians” will be surprised when they receive their due punishment.

  130. Margo - March 20, 2013 at 10:44 am

    Carter,

    What is it that the Word of God tells us to do.. time and time again, to be saved? Does it say for us to abide in Christ to be saved? Does it tell us to obey 6000+ commandments to be saved? NO. It tells us to believe on Jesus Christ.. to be saved.

    Practically everything you mention, points to a ‘works’ salvation. Making Gods divine plan of salvation conditional and temporary…. all hinging on us and what we do or don’t do.

    The burden of our Eternal Salvation rests upon Christ… not ourselves. Its His plan and He does the saving. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as blessed assurance.

    The Christians who will experience the ‘Lord Lord” deal are those who are trusting in God + themselves for their salvation. They think they somehow need to complete what Christ did on the Cross.. or they think they must do something to maintain their salvation.

    If we have to do these things, salvation isn’t eternal, right?

  131. Shelby Daniel - March 26, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    First of all what happened to Judas, he was there, seen it all with his own eyes…..but he got to thinking of SELF. Christ said it would have been better if he had never been born. You have got to stay away from SELF. Self can never make it, pride in yourself, ME,ME,ME. The church is in really big trouble. I ask you what is the object of your faith….think, is it me and what I know or is it The Cross and JESUS CHRIST Crucified. There is the power and the whole Bible from Gen to Rev, teaches this, here is your key. Stay focused daily on Jesus Christ and him crucified…..this is the only way the holy spirit can work in your life and keep you away from SELF thinking. If the Evil one can get your mind off the CROSS, then he can hook you,…..Stay away from the hook stay focused on the CROSS and live this life victory to victory. Your prayer life should center as well as your whole life around the CROSS. Ever wondered why they are taking the CROSS out of so many churches. What the CROSS did for Paul is as real today as it was then. You have to die to SELF daily and take up the CROSS>>>There is POWER in the CROSS! Pray stay focused my Christian Brothers and Sisters!!

  132. Aaron Jacobs - April 9, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Maybe someone pointed this out, but I didn’t have time to read all of the comments. It seems to me that the verse in Hebrews that says ‘it is impossible to restore’ is directly pointing to Christians…however, I don’t think it is saying that it is impossible because it is not possible for someone to get to that point. I believe it is saying directly that once you are saved, if you CHOOSE to give up your salvation THEN you CANNOT get it back. I use scripture to interpret scripture. John tells us that if we say we are saved, yet live like we are not, then we were never saved to begin with (1 John 1:6). It is clear in scripture that there are degrees of sin, as Jesus told Pilate that the one who delivered Him had committed a higher sin…but just because there are degrees doesn’t mean they can’t all be covered by the blood. Only 1 sin is unforgivable, and that is the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I believe Robert Morris (Gateway Church) has the best teaching on this sin…to paraphrase it is a sin done over time…So, according to 1 John, if we are truly saved, then we will not fall away. According to Hebrews it is possible for someone to turn away from God, but once that is done there is no restoration to salvation. (I would like to make the distinction that I believe Hebrews here is talking about a choice to turn away from God, rather than just a choice to commit a sin). IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THE QUESTION WE SHOULD ALL BE ASKING ISN’T WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN LOSE OUR SALVATION…BUT RATHER, WHAT IS EXACTLY THE PROCESS OF SALVATION…WHEN IS MOMENT IN WHICH SOMEONE IS ACTUALLY SAVED? I say that because scripture NEVER contradicts itself…And, someone said above that Paul wrote something, but Jesus said something else, and Paul is no Jesus…I need to remind everyone: According to 2 Timothy 3:16, all scripture is God breathed…and according to John 1, ‘the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God.’ Yes this is a direct reference to Jesus…the Word of God…who wrote the Holy Scripture…the Bible is perfect, never contradicting itself…so if it seems that it has contradicted itself, then we need to NOT argue one side of it, but rather study and seek out the Truth to find out how the two sides work together. We can argue once saved, always saved vs. losing salvation till Jesus returns…and because so many scriptures support both sides, both sides will be wrong. I will restate my position for clarity: I don’t believe there is any sin, or amount of sin, that a true follower of Christ can commit to lose salvation…that is in accordance with 1 John 1, and Romans 5:20. Paul then made it clear that because of grace you cannot just go on sinning…why? Because of 1 John 1…Also, Luke 9:23, we have to give up our lives, pick up our cross and FOLLOW Jesus. However, God desires a people to worship Him out of free will and choice…which means we have the free will and choice to worship Him. MY OPINION here is that God does not remove the ability to choose to worship Him or turn away, even after we are saved because His desire is for a people that choose Him…therefore it is possible to choose to turn away from God, but once that choice has been made by someone who has already tasted of the Holy Spirit, there is no restoration…this is in accordance with Hebrews 6:4-5…I also believe, if we are going to use scripture to interpret scripture, that this is referring directly to the unforgiveable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit…

    I joined this conversation as a forum to hone my study and try to verbalize (in written form) my beliefs. But the truth is, I think this argument is one of the most hindering arguments inside the church. Trying to figure out whether or not we can lose our salvation is us trying to figure out how close we can get to ‘the line’ without crossing over…but that isn’t the Gospel Jesus preached at all. He said ‘to save your life you must DIE!’ I say, instead of figuring out how close someone can get to the line without crossing over, we should be preaching that the farther away from the line you get the better life is!!!

  133. Margo - April 11, 2013 at 8:53 am

    Aaron Jacobs : I sincerely don’t think 1 John 1:6 is telling us that we are not or have never been saved at all. Those of whom spoken to are believers aka saved. Once Christ saves an individual, that person is saved and it is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    1 John 1 :

    1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

    5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    This is speaking of FELLOWSHIP with God.. and how it is hampered should we walk in darkness. It isn’t however, speaking of our RELATIONSHIP with God. Fellowship and relationship are two different things. For our own good, as Born-Again Believers.. its always best to have fellowship with the Lord. He is then, able to bless us as He really would like to bless us.. plus, it effects our reward once we get to Heaven. Please keep in mind the fact that, the unbeliever aka unsaved individual has no relationship with God.. much less, fellowship. The Believer has a relationship with God and may or may not have the fellowship level that he or she should. Kind of like any Earthly relationship.. you are always going to be your dad’s son.. even though, you may be estranged or whatever.. have no fellowship. Blessings!

  134. David William Kinner - April 16, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    I am not at all trying to be arrogant, I am just saying the thing is, is a real Christian, whom has been transformed by the blood of Jesus Christ, would NEVER do that. That's what John is talking about in 1 John 2:18-25 "18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
    " They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." So why did the people that had claimed to be with them leave?, They left God, after claiming to have received him, however John says that they left, and were capable of leaving because they were never with them to begin with because if they had been, they never would have left them in the first place.

  135. Jimmy Morrison Jr - April 19, 2013 at 3:37 am

    Matt.7:23 says it all. "depart from me for I never knew you" means they were never saved to begin with. God will finish what he started. I quit trying to prove you coulf not lde salvation because it might do some people good to beleive they can lose it. It migjt keep them in line more. Besides, He done the choosing, not us.

  136. Sheila Crawford - April 30, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    Is there Scripture to confirm that God could take a sinner home before he would lose his salvation??

  137. Roger - May 1, 2013 at 4:19 am

    Sheila – there isn’t a scripture that says you will be taken out before you lose you salvation. Now I have seen things that make me believe that it may have happened, but the people had done nothing to indicate they were going astray; it just seemed that they may have been on the verge of swerving off the path a little.

    The only two that have been taken out of this world in scripture are Enoch and Elijah and both were the children of God.

  138. Void To Eternity - May 1, 2013 at 10:26 am

    Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”.

    I think this scripture says it all: If you put your hand to the plow, you have committed to being a Christian and serve God; if you look back (Lot's wife) you are again lost.

  139. jeff - May 4, 2013 at 10:04 am

    I have been a christian for 50 years and to be honest Ive never really resolved this issue. I think God reveals to each of us what he knows we need. To me he has revealed If you are not right with God whether it be because you never had it or not sure Or because you feel like you lost it is not important whats is important is Making it right by submitting to Gods will for your life and believing in your heart that christ died for your sins and by Gods grace we are saved. Whether its the first time or your second time of believing. I believe that making this a big denominational issue causes strife among the brotheren And i believe thats one of the 7 things that God hates accord to the old testiment.

  140. Stevie - May 12, 2013 at 2:20 am

    Is the parable of the four seeds faling on four types of ground helpful in this debate? Three of the peolpe appear to get some sort of foot in the door before losing their place, with only one person actually entering. In Luke Scripture says that one of the people did indeed “believe” before eventually missing out. Great debate, I love this sort of stuff.

  141. newcreation - May 15, 2013 at 8:07 am

    We are Saved by Gods grace, not by what we do. Romans3:21-26 says us being put right with God has nothing to do with the law, even though the Law of Moses and the prophets gave their witness to it. God puts people right through their faith in Jesus Christ. God does this to all who believe in Christ, because there is no difference at all: EVERYONE has sinned and is far away from Gods saving presence. But by the free gift of God’s grace all are put right with him through Jesus Christ, who sets them free.

    When it comes to salvation there is no amount of good we can do to “earn” a place in heaven. we don’t deserve salvation, it is a GIFT. one which is received by faith.

    However, this does not mean that if we accept Jesus as our Lord then we can sin as much as we want. Romans 6:1-2 shows Paul arguing against that. By dying on the cross and raising up from the dead, Jesus sets free from sin so that we don’t have to be its slaves anymore. This then gives us the freedom of choice to say no when we are tempted. However to say that by sinning after you are saved means that you loose your salvation cannot be right because that means that our salvation is a result of you actions instead of our faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

  142. akinyeye akinmayowa - May 19, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    He is coming like a thief in the night,no matter how long you have given your life if your ways are not straight with God at the second coming of Christ Jesus you’ve missed it.Now the way out is to do what the prodigal son did in luke 15:11-32.Dwelling in sin like sitting on a gun powder.

  143. Margo - May 20, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    akinyeye akinmayowa : The Rapture and the Second Coming are two different, separate events. So, you’re saying that the Apostle Paul would’ve gone to Hell had the Rapture transpired during his Roman 7 days?

    Sounds to my like you have doubts in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. Like you’re telling us that satan has more power in sins than Christ has in covering them in His precious Blood.

    You’re also sending the message that what salvation boils down to is all in how we conduct ourselves and not Gods Grace.

    Once Christ saves us, God no longer recognizes our short-comings as sin. The sin itself is condemned.. not the sinner saved by GRACE.

  144. Tonya Gail Evans - May 29, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    the bible does not teach sinless perfectition! it cant be both ways! this is what confuses the world! a man said to me what are we supposed to beleive, when every preacher is preaching something different! all christian should take heed to that statement! we are saved by faith thru grace, we are justified by faith.. when we are born again…. we are now led by the spirit(holy spirit)! the holy spirit alone can produce holiness( holy living)! the whole problem here is not having knowledge to rightly devide the word of truth! if your are trying to serve the lord, by obeying rules( the law 10 commandment) then you have fallen from grace! 2 corinthians 3:7… its either the law or grace! no one is without sin! no lil sin or big sin… sin is sin to a holy God! being led by the holy spirit will never led you to sin… it is the power of God to overcome sin! sin was delt with at calvery…. just ant never going to bleed agian! jesus didn't shed his blood to cover sin.. he shed his blood to take away sin! the new covenant-new testament(jesus christ) sin is not the issue for the beleiver…. faith is! proper faith will produce proper actions! if your faith is in christ and his finished work at calvery, and that alone… the fruit of the spirit will been seen in your life! sin was delt with at the cross, paid in full, once and for all time! put your faith in you, and your ability… you will fall from grace! you let you down the last time!

  145. Joe Ensminger - June 11, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    The Holy Spirit will testify to you of your salvation. If you arent 100% sure then you likely havent experienced the Holy Spirit. Nothing anyone on earth could ever tell me would make me doubt my salvation….the Holy Spirit wont allow it. The checklist for salvation is pretty short: Do you believe that you have sinned and that your sin results in eternal seperation from God? Do you accept the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ to atone for your sins and redeem you to His Kingdom? The Holy Spirit will confirm whether you truly beleive these two statements in a way that no amount of self examination will ever do. Let the Spirit assess your salvation…..you cannot do that for yourself.

    • Chrristine - December 14, 2017 at 1:56 am

      What about the ones who believed they had the HOLY SPIRIT, and cast out demons, yet YAH, said, depart from me? It seems, either they were deceived by men who taught false doctrine, and believed a lie, never really seeking, for themselves to know what YAH said in HIS word, thereby excusing their sins, believing once saved always saved, or were totally fake. ‍♀️ The Bible says, the Streight and narrow road leads to life. YESHUA is the Streight and narrow road. That means there is only one way, and it’s HIS way. HIS commandments are good! And HE expects us to adhere to them if we claim to be saved. He never said to stop keeping them! HE actually said to keep them. They in themselves, without HIM, will not save us! Without HIS sacrifice, “HIS death, in place, of ours sins, which lead to our death”, and HIS HOLY SPIRIT that should lead to HOLINESS, in us… the Bible says, no man can see YAH. We cannot work our way into heaven. HE alone pays our way. But obeadiance, is better than, death/sacrifice. If, we repent, and turn from sin, we are forgiven by HIS sacrifice on the cross, for the sins, we have committed against HIS laws and precepts. We are required to change our ways and obey HIM and what HE commands. Sadly… We are so ignorant in so many ways! That’s the more reason we need to learn from HIM. HIS, WORD/HOLY SPIRIT is the lamp, unto our feet and a light unto our path. Which guides and helps us not to stumble. HIS word will chastise.. and that is good! Or we are not HIS children. It also rewards. If we “willingly”, sin, after we know for sure.. exactly.. what is expected of us, and we keep “willfully” doing it, Our way over HIS…. and we hear HIM say not to do it… that is very scary!!! On the other hand, if we have repented, and we’ve read YAHS word for ourselves and fully understand what HE requires, yet we sin “unintentionally”, by that I mean.. not plan the sin out, and we quickly repent of that sin.. then I believe HE will forgive us. Intensional and Unintensional sin, is the discussion. It’s hard to believe that YAH would just keep tolerating over and over, our intensional sins, after we repent and know better. I’m so thankful for YAHS merciful grace, and patients toward us! But we should never… forget, HE hates.. sin, and HE will judge us!! That’s why it’s so… important, to search the scriptures for ourselves, seeking all HIS truths, so that we can find the salvation HE offers, with fear, and trembling!!!!

  146. Roger - June 27, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Rachel, It is not enough to repeat what you have heard, it requires scripture:

    Luke 9:62 (NKJV)
    But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

  147. Roger - June 27, 2013 at 6:38 pm

    Before I start, I suggest that the Book of Hebrews be read.

    “Also, Luke 9:62 is talking about simply, keeping the faith. Keep believing on Christ ONLY for our ETERNAL Salvation.”

    Absolutely wrong, read the verse it says “not fit for the kingdom of God”, if you are not fit for the kingdom of God, you are going to Hell, plain and simple. Here are a couple more:

    Heb 10:26 (KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    If you think Christ is going to continue to bare your “intentional” sin time after time – Christ died once for sin:

    Heb 6:
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

  148. Jenny - July 2, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    It appears to me that we are only saved by grace through faith in Christ and not through works of our own flesh. However, once we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit, we then live out our faith through works. In fact, it’s the works that demonstrate our faith. So it’s not that works save us–they don’t initially save us (God does when we commit to his son and lifestyle)—it’s that if we really truly decide to follow Christ, we will, from that point on, do our best to live for him without willfully practicing sin.

    Sadly, I feel like many of are doomed. I have committed sins, knowing that they were wrong (like over-eating–lack of moderation– or gossiping, etc.). I am very sorrowful that I have done these things, fully knowing they were wrong. But I wish I could change my ways. I am not happy about these things in the least.

    Anyway, I don’t know to what point someone loses their salvation, but it sounds like people can. Jesus said “be ye perfect just as your father in Heaven is perfect.” This is impossible to do before we are saved, but it is expected after we receive Christ. Well at least it is expected that we strive to be perfect and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If we aren’t trying hard to be as perfect as Christ, it would seem we aren’t saved.

    The thing I’m confused about is what if we WANT to be more eager to please God? I am eager to please God, but sometimes in the moment I give in to temptation, which I should not be doing. Does this mean I am not saved and still have a chance to be saved or that I was saved and messed up and now don’t belong to Christ anymore? Or is there still time on this earth to repent and make things right with God?

    Is there still hope for me and/or others like me? I haven’t killed anyone, but I’ve been angry in my heart even after I’ve been a Christian and Jesus said that even if you are angry with someone, it’s as if you’ve killed them. I’m not knowingly holding a grudge anymore, but even so, I have done things like that. I am just wondering how many of us have done what most people think to be “little sins” and maybe we have lost our salvation because, nevertheless, those so-called little sins are still disobeying God and his Holy Spirit. Isn’t that the sin that can’t be forgiven? Denying the Holy Spirit, as in we do something we know to be wrong? I know it is wrong to eat too much but I have a binge eating problem and do it almost every day. I should be turning down extra food, but I don’t, for example.

  149. Roger - July 3, 2013 at 3:48 am

    Jenny, you are wise in how we should live and not unlike many of us. I sometimes commit intentional sin knowing that I am doing wrong and I do not know if there is any forgiveness for it but there is no more sacrifice for it and we crucify Christ again; I do know that our works will be tested by fire. What it seems that some are taught in churches is that one sin is not as great as another and that is not true, Jesus stated that if we commit any sin, we have committed them all. To know to do good and not do it is sin (James 4:17).

    Let me say that 99% of the churches commit intentional sin every week (I am not of any denomination but God’s Word) by saying that the only commandment that God said “remember” is broken – the Sabbath. Since none of them ask forgiveness for it, will they be forgiven? (See Matt 19:17).

    The whole issue wraps around the “freewill” that God has given us and we are being tested as to whether we want what God has for us in the future or what we want now in this world now. What we must strive to do is become more righteous each day and break our earthly habits. I think you understand this and you need to keep praying – ask the elders of the church to pray for you – and above all, keep trying.

    I will pray for you, you pray for me and “hope” for God’s blessings on us all.

  150. PenguinTodd - July 6, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    Blessing to all!

    I’ve been away and just recently opened this commentary again. I noticed the comments have continued. Good discussion my brothers and sisters. Let me state a few observations regarding the commentary here. I hope helps bring a better understanding.

    1) I believe we have a tendency to talk past one another without noticing that we agree more than disagree. One is talking about sinning freely and the other is talking about a free deliverance. We have a tendency to make the two statements equal to one another in the commentary. They are not; nor is it what the blessed assurance is talking about.
    2) I dislike the title “Can we lose our salvation?” because it suggests salvation is a product of our doing some how. Salvation is the work of Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit and not of us. Our responsibility is to faith, good works and repentance. A better question would be “Do you have the faith of salvation?”
    3) What are you saved from and how are you saved? I think this is the critical question each must answer. We are saved by grace, trusting in Christ on the cross FROM a life of sin unto good works. It isn’t a get out of hell free card so now I can live my life as I want without consequence. NOR, is it probation to see how you act to determine whether or not you are worthy of salvation.
    4) The Holy Spirit is totally non-credited in the discussion here. The issue relegates to truth. Salvation is God in Us. That is either true and thus saved or not true and thus not saved. A saved person has the Spirit to convict them of sin. Mind you to convict, not to make you immune from/to sin or temptation. Abraham sinned, David sinned, Moses sinned, Peter sinned, and Paul sinned (actually talked about it hounding him his whole life). All sinned after being declared righteous by God. So, I seriously doubt anyone here is going to go on record as saying they are greater than these and say they are without sin. Nor do I believe anyone would say all these people are burning in hell because they did sin. Point of fact is that we are still in flesh and the flesh profits nothing, its nature is to sin. Thus, we commit acts of sin—before and after salvation. The change is our relation to sin as to God declaring us righteous through the blood of Christ, to our conviction of sin as sin such to repent and to an ability given to us to walk with God because of the Holy Spirit who is with us.
    5) Do you have a marriage to sin or a marriage to Christ? You only have one master. Many passages in the bible (some even mentioned in this article) are to help us draw that line to show us where we are in relation to truth. Do you convict the sins you commit or do you live for them?
    6) Are you silencing the Holy Spirit who is with you? If so, you don’t have a salvation problem, you have a faith problem. Again, our responsibility is not to go and “save myself.” That is God’s work: “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Faith is God working with and in us as well. We don’t do it alone; don’t try to; don’t think you can. That is a fool’s errand. Turn to his word, prayer, repentance, fellowship with other believers (church), and service in the Name of Christ Jesus. These are tools to help you grow in faith and works. If we ask for forgiveness, He is faithful to forgive us of all our unrighteousness.
    7) To abide means to place your trust in and unto. It isn’t paying lip service and checking a box so you can say I get to go to heaven. It is a changed life that testifies of BEING saved. It isn’t a test for worthiness and it isn’t a collection of works FOR salvation either. To abide is to come to rest in Christ (long progressive work in our lifetime) and thus deliverance out of a labor of our self motivations.

    Hope this helps and helps further an understanding that this is what I have iterated from the beginning of this discussion regarding my commentary. The world doesn’t have a salvation problem, for Christ Jesus is the solution and He has come and He has finished His work on the Cross. The world has a faith problem such to trust in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit to guide and circumcise one’s life path. I hope you are not such a person but rather a person who on this day, will confess your sin, convict it as sin, and ask and turn to Christ Jesus for love, forgiveness, deliverance and eternal life. This is what He does for this is His promise. That is something to believe, not something to discredit or deny.

    Blessings,
    PenguinTodd

  151. Thomas - July 22, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Can a minister in the church {a singer}serve God and yet do not have the Holy spirit. Meaning is his services acceptable before God?

  152. Roger - July 23, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    Thomas, you picked a subject (Holy Spirit) that has been debated heavily. I think the best way to answer your question is to allow Jesus to be the judge. How can a person that is not an anti-Christ, who does work for a Church, and does not erode the scriptures, going to have their services rejected. Jesus said: “For he who is not against us is on our side.

    “For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. (Mark 9:40-41 NKJV).

    My question is: How do you know that the person does not have the Holy Spirit?

  153. PenguinTodd - July 25, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    Thomas, I believe you hit the head of two nails with that one swing. Let me flush out my meaning here via reference to what Paul lays out in Romans 6-8. Truth exists by two realms: heaven and us. Now, God in heaven knows the truth, it is the truth and nothing but the truth. Either we are righteous and thus saved whereby God/Christ Jesus is faithful to send a witness to be with us (Holy Spirit), or we are unrighteous and not saved and thereby, have no Holy Spirit to dwell with us. Obviously, there is no problem regarding the truth of salvation before God.

    Now for us on the other hand, it seems to be all gray. Am I saved? Did I blow it? I believed, now I don’t really know? Can I do “good deeds” and not be saved? What about that guy at church who “appears” to be saintly, so I bet he is saved but I see that I’m not totally like him so does that mean I’m not saved?

    Do you see the calamity here? It is all with man and his understanding of truth. See, there is the established truth in heaven and then there is the experienced truth in us.

    Jesus lays out the measurement(s) for us so we can UNDERSTAND the truth of our salvation and stand as encouragement or rebuking for others but not for us to say to others SAVED or NOT SAVED because that is God’s judgment unto others and not ours.

    So what is/are the measurement(s)?

    A. Must be born again or have the Holy Spirit.
    B. Good tree bears good fruit; a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    C. Rooted in love to keep commandments, such to love God and to love one another.
    D. Displays fruits of the Holy Spirit (Humble, joy, love, peace, harmony, charitable).
    E. Has a heart of conviction towards sin and is repentant of sin in his life.
    F. Has a truth in faith, such that it perseveres in face of testing, difficulties.
    G. One who examines his life in reflection of the Holy Spirit and standard of Jesus such to grow in faith and truth (sanctification).

    What this means is we have a faith IN Christ AS OUR SAVIOUR and a belief that He preached the truth via His gospel message. Using the word “IN” as meaning designating a trust for our lives and our way of living (lifestyle) versus perceiving Him as some external worker of good by which I’ll benefit. The word IN or INTO denotes a movement to a position of an internal relationship or existence with God.

    Remember because of sin we were cut off from God, apart from Him. But, through Christ and the Holy Spirit we have God in us. Thus, the nature of God then works inside of us to change us such that the nature of God eventually proceeds out from us in love, joy, peace, works, charity, and relations with others.

    This is why Jesus also warns us of those who are outwardly like sheep but inwardly ravaging wolves. They don’t have the Holy Spirit working in them. Also, apart from Christ our works are but filthy rags. So, just because we do “good” as defined by man doesn’t mean that it is “good” by God or done with regards to God and His will but rather may be done strictly by the will of the doer for appearance sakes. Usually these people talk up themselves and talk down (judgmental) towards others. They aren’t too forgiven or humble frankly. This is where I believe the “Lord, Lord” reference in this article is applicable.

    Paul tells us to measure ourselves in the mirror. Jesus tells us to keep the faith (IN HIM) or to persevere, and to pick up our cross daily (ours not His mind you).

    Now some believe that not persevering or if one takes up a life of sinning again then that equates to “loss of salvation.” I don’t see it that way because it means that we can overwrite the truth of salvation in heaven. For me, I don’t overwrite God. God overwrites my perceived falsehood; whether that is “I believe I am saved but I am not” or that “I’m not sure but really that I am saved”. Salvation is the work of God to bring us to truth. TO DO IN EARTH (you are earthly clay) AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

    Put simply, it means eventually we will relegate to God’s truth and it will become the experienced truth for us because God is doing the work, the faith, the saving, etc… He does this for HIS people. I don’t make it happen for God but rather God makes it happen in me for His glory.

    My point is do you believe this? Believe IN Christ Jesus? Or, do you believe IN you/your works? What is your faith?

    Blessings, PenguinTodd

  154. Roger - July 25, 2013 at 11:34 pm

    PenguinTodd, it is going to take more than belief, faith and baptism, we will be judged for our works: Revelation 20:12 (NKJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    Do you remember the parable of the three men and the talents, what did it mean when the man buried his one and Jesus said to give it to the one who had ten and cast the other one into darkness (Matt 25:14-30)? We are given such things and we are to pass them along to others, how can this be done except by works? Can we pass up the hungry and naked without giving them resources that we had to “work” for? How about tithes, did they just appear, or were they worked for?

    It seems that many think that they can go to Church on Sunday morning and do absolutely nothing the rest of the week and they are fine. Did Jesus sit around or did he spend His time “working”? How about Paul? Works are a major part of being a Christian.

    There are also two types of sin – unintentional and intentional. Jesus became a sacrifice one time for all sin and we will do things that we do not intend to as Paul did and then some will do thing intentionally for which there is no more sacrifice:
    Hebrews 10:26 (NKJV) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

    To put this in perspective and show that the majority of those who consider that they have salvation: James 4:17 (NKJV) Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do [it,] to him it is sin.

    The major problem is that there is a “I believe” theology and that is as false as the anti-Christ; without truth which is the whole Word of God, there is no salvation.

  155. PenguinTodd - July 27, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    Roger thanks for your comments. I don’t disagree with you in an appeal to do “good” or to do works. But, either we disagree as to their topical application– meaning a determinate of a saved person, Christian ethics and service to God– or thus we disagree as to what constitutes salvation itself.

    Topics raised are:

    1) Salvation
    2) Sin
    3) Works/Doing “good”
    4) Judgment

    (1) As for me, salvation is the work of God, period. Specifically, salvation is the free gift He gives to His people for their belief in Him. I am not simply saying this as an opinion or “theology” but rather I am saying that this IS the testimony of the Word of God as given in the bible– references John 3:16, Psalm 118:14-29, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 4:4-8, Romans 5:1-11, and Ephesians 1:13-14 for starters.

    Put another way, I am not saying I am saved because I think/believe I am or that I understand that I am. But, that I am saved because GOD says so by His Word. And, I …believe… His Word!

    I am saved by God’s promise to His people to deliver us as fulfilled by the covenant He made to Himself and was given to us in Christ Jesus. This covenant is the NEW covenant issued in Christ by Christ for us, whereby Christ fulfilled the old covenant of the Law. We are saved not by works, not by law– BUT BY GRACE! We are saved apart from the law. We were brought into righteousness (the righteousness of Christ) through the shedding of His blood. The old covenant sacrifices were temporary and did not dissolve man’s sins but only secured a deferment (a forbearance, see Romans: 3-21-26) until a proper sacrifice was made. That proper sacrifice is Christ Jesus and His sacrifice is eternal and complete and it REMOVES ours sins such NEVER TO BE REMEMBER again.

    (2) Sin was dealt with at the cross. It was God’s victory by Christ over sin and death, not mine (John 19:30). I lost the battle to sin. But, by grace I am redeemed out of sin or from sin and death through faith (belief) in Christ who as my savior bought me out of sin and death by the shedding of His blood. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, (Romans 8:1-11). We are now of the Spirit and not of flesh.

    Thus again, the question defaults to who then has the Spirit to assert or testify as to the truth of Christ in them and thus that person’s salvation? This was the nature of the discussion of the more recent postings. My response on that was to point us to examine our faith, service, benevolent nature, and works which all serve as that outward appearance of Christ in us such to testify as to the truth that Christ is in fact in us; and, thereby, assert the EXISTENCE of our salvation (experienced for us). This of course leads us to topic of works.

    (3) The lost salvation argument formed by this article and to a large extent the Catholic position along with the Lordship Salvation argument is that one is not saved until one has demonstrated works and has overcome sin in his life. This thereby, defines salvation as faith PLUS works. This makes works and the elimination of sin necessary and PRIOR to one’s salvation. By this understanding, Christ serves as a helper and as an example of what a saved person needs to be. Stated another way– Christ Jesus only serves in facilitating our salvation and not actually delivering it!

    This is not the Word of God. God saves; man does not– for the flesh profits nothing. God saves you and GIVES YOU ETERNAL LIFE so that you might and thereby CAN do a good work. Not the other way around. The whole point of the Law is to show us that we cannot do a good work apart from God! Only after one is in Christ can we then begin to do a good work. Salvation is the free gift; this is so you no longer seek to labor for your own benefit (for your salvation) but that you now labor for Christ (a labor of Christ), for the glory of God, for the advancement of the Kingdom of God, and for the hope of salvation for others. Christ calls us to His rest that He then GIVES us; He does not call us to labor but to rest; nor does He call us to labor for it. Further, He tells us to enter His rest for promises of rewards (Matthew 11:28-30).

    If you have to still and continue to labor, to do “good,” or to do works for the sake of YOUR SALVATION, then that is not FREEDOM! That my friend is bondage! Thus, such a position asserts that you are still in bondage and subject to God’s wrath for sins. Therefore, my point is how is it that you can say you are saved such to lose it, if it is still “pending” dependent on you doing works? This is nonsense.

    At what point then do you have salvation? The Catholic position answers this by saying you cannot know of it in this world. But, it is asserted only after your death, along with a testimony of works and a decree by the Catholic Church, typically unto sainthood. For others, they await in purgatory for the completion of their sanctification. This was established as an answer for those not quite saintly without having to put the Catholic Church on the hook by saying they are fully damned because they are not proclaimed as saints! Thus, one is in bondage to the Catholic Church to work-work-work for the entirety of their life just for possible HOPE of salvation! This is horrible! It denies the sufficiency of Christ Jesus such to promote the necessity of subjugation under the Catholic Church. This is why one Martin Luther challenged the doctrines of the Catholic Church (among other reasons).

    My response is that I am not saved because the Catholic Church says so or because some theologian requires my full subjection under Lordship before I can BECOME saved. Christ does not become my Lord by my subjection of service to Him; He is Lord because of His rightful standing for He IS the Lord of Lords, period. This is true for believers and non-believers alike. I am not saved by the testimony of men but by the testimony of God as given in His Word (Christ Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

    Now afford me kind sir, a moment of Godly Spirit to preach the Gospel as it has perhaps never been preached these days. Know this– one is saved because the Word of God says so! Because of His grace which was given to you and me through Christ Jesus for His having died on the cross for our sake out of his love for us, though we were yet sinners! And, we have the truth of this Gospel because Christ Jesus was raised to life to right hand of God to stand in testimony that this was done and that all authority has been given to Him even the granting of eternal life, by His mercy and grace and not of our works least any one of us might boast before God!

    As for work, I ask, what godly work precedes faith in Christ Jesus? Does a non-believer do works in service for God? No. Only by faith does one do works. Faith or belief comes before works. Works is the outcome not the prerequisite. Thereby, once one has faith in Christ one has salvation because this IS the Word of God as it is PROCLAIMED in John 3:16. This, my friend, is the bedrock of the Gospel! This is why it is called THE GOOD NEWS! Only after being in Christ, may I proceed unto works for the Kingdom of God. And, YES God, by His Word (Christ Jesus) and the Holy Spirit all call us to do good works. But, this is not given such to become saved by our hands of works but as a testimony of the truth of God before others such that through you God might draw others to a belief in Christ Jesus for THEIR forgiveness of sin and eternal life!

    At this point one often argues in return, so I can sin away and still be saved? Only man thinks in this manner. Only man can take a lie of sin and try to make it stand as truth. For what man cheats on his wife continuously and without regard and thereby can believe that these deeds can stand as a testimony of truth he loves his wife? His testimony is not that he loves his wife, but that he loves his sin, his unfaithfulness! On the other hand, what marriage does not have its challenges, failures and tests of faithfulness and devotion? And, what marriage survives that is not dependent upon growth, love, sacrifice, understanding, and forgiveness? This too is our marriage to Christ Jesus. It is rooted in truth such that we testify of it by how we live in regards to it; yes, even to works! Thus, works are good and necessary to facility the testimony of salvation’s existence but not to it for the purpose of acquirement. Thus, James statement of I show you my works! He is not saying I work to be saved. Rather, James is saying I work so you might SEE that I am saved! That there is TRUTH in Christ, even unto salvation and eternal life!

    But know too that our marriage in Christ must grow and faces challenges for the solidification of our relationship and for truth. This is such that by our perseverance it testifies to our relationship to Christ and to truth; but, even more so to an increase in faith and to faithfulness because of the love which binds and abounds in us to a greater relationship with Him! Know that He is a God of Increase!

    (4) Your opening statement of judgment by works as noted in Revelations should be understood that this reference is for the dead! We are alive in Christ not dead. Now, understand I believe that we should all work towards good deeds and this is one area where I agree with the Catholic Church that even non-believers should strive in good works. We should be able to come to some agreement of good and strive towards it. But, the problem is without Christ such an effort is likely to fail for non-believers and further non-believers need righteousness before God more than they need works. Seek first the Kingdom of God and all His righteousness and all these things will be given to you, Matthew 6:33.

    Yes the saved will stand in judgment too. But, not unto sins but for their deeds in regards to rewards in the Kingdom of God, see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-17. But, this is a purification test of our works for rewards and not for salvation. If our works are a growth tied to earthly means such as straw, hay and wood it will not survive the Kingdom of God’s test and will be burned up. But, if our works are likened to precious stones, gold and silver then our works will stand for our receipt of rewards in the Kingdom of God. But either way, WE WILL STILL BE SAVED.

    As for Matthew 25 regarding the parable of the bags of gold given to the three servants, many believe this is a parable about salvation. That all three servants were saved but only the two who did works secured their salvation but because the third did not do works his salvation was taken away from him. I disagree that this is the message of this parable.

    The subject of conversation at the end of Matthew 24 and continued in Matthew 25 speaks about differences in relation to God not to salvation itself. Here Christ demonstrates the necessity of a proper relationship for salvation and from that works naturally come forth and are readily profitable. Rather than making a theological advancement of salvation by works, the message here is unless one has a proper relation to God one does not display wisdom (parable of the ten virgins) or a proper motivation/guidance for the sake of good works and thereby profitability. How many preachers and pastors have come and fallen in disgrace because it was shown that they were not in it for God but that they were in it for money and for their own glory? What they had was taken away from them and in time it is given to others.

    The principle is the same here as the third servant did not see the master and the talent given to him as something to cherish but saw it as a curse, something to abhor. I have an extremely difficult time saying this represents the character of a saved person, a Christian. A saved person goes in rejoicing of Christ Jesus and proclaiming him. He does not, make that he CANNOT abide in a contentious regard towards Him. Christ Jesus is the source of joy not disdain. But as for the third servant he saw his master as one to disregard and loath, not someone by whom to be of joyful service. He buried the gift and thus it was dead (no life, and no testimony) before the world. At the master’s return (judgment) he tried to placate him by offering the gift back and thereby to reconcile himself before his master by saying that since there was no loss all is good, right? No harm no foul.

    The answer is no because God is a God of increase! Thus, he points out that even with a lack of faith in his own ability or of himself the servant could have given to those who do have (bankers) such to draw interest (I see this as to give to the church). Thus, he is without excuse about the good and profitability of the gift regardless of how little or small it is with that person (the good of Christ and His gift—Gospel message). That there was no gain testifies that there was in fact loss! It testifies that the servant had not a proper relation to his master but that in truth he had a disregard for him and the gift given to him.

    This speaks more to the point that ALL (believers and non-believers) are without excuse in this world for the Gospel message of Christ Jesus proclaiming love and forgiveness is good no matter the extent of your faith. But, even if one has little belief such to serve God, if they were to respect the message and give in the name of God it would still profit the Kingdom of God and it would testify as to a proper relationship to God.

    I believe the point here is that there is no way to regard Christ Jesus and the Gospel message as something to disregard or have disdain for no matter how difficult it is for someone to believe in it. To respect the message given by Christ Jesus of Love and Forgiveness with a simple regard for it is all that is sufficient for increase and for a proper relationship. Again, it is our relation that is either rooted in truth or falsehood (foolish virgins, third servant, and goats). A proper one has an outward display in trust, wisdom, works, and service to the Kingdom of God, no matter how small it might be. An improper one will come under judgment because the good of God and His light (Christ Jesus) stand as truth against them, John 3:19.

    Blessings, PenguinTodd

  156. Roger - July 28, 2013 at 4:08 am

    PenguinTodd, you spend a lot of time trying to justify the position that we are saved by grace through faith which is true; example would be someone make a confession of faith on their death bed. What I see is you want to pick the verses you want and the rest are all transparent. Do as you wish… if you want to commit adultery, or lie, or steal and believe you have salvation…

  157. PenguinTodd - July 28, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    Roger, I am not picking verses I want but rather pointing out the verses that clearly state that salvation is something God gives us; that it is not something man earns. Nor am I promoting or advocating a life of lies, stealing and adultery. I simply seek to promote the truth of God’s Word so that we might all rejoice in His work and sing the praises of the LORD OUR SAVIOUR, to the Glory of God the Father!

  158. Roger - July 29, 2013 at 9:46 am

    PenguinTodd, I don’t think you will find anything in my post about “earning salvation”, but by the same token there is a requirement to show that you are a Christian by your works – without works, salvation is void:
    James 2:17 (NKJV) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    James 2:26 (NKJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    I would suggest the reading of James 2. One of the problems with Churches is they preach what we have and not what we should do – visit the sick, feed the poor, etc…

    Why don’t you take a look at my website Void to Eternity

  159. PenguinTodd - July 29, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Roger, I agree with you on James. But, you aren’t catching what you just wrote. Without works the– what? — is dead? Faith is dead. He is saying at that point you don’t have a real faith. If you don’t have a real faith, then you don’t have Christ. If you don’t have Christ, you don’t have eternal life.

    It doesn’t say if you have no works, then you have no salvation. It says, your FAITH IS DEAD.
    Why is that? Because faith is from Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 12:2.

    Thus, my point that it breaks down to TRUTH. You are truthfully in Christ, thus saved and from which, because Christ works in you, you will bear fruit. Whereby, fruit and works take on many different forms.

    If you are dead (lack faith), then you are dead. And, YES I agree this means there are no works. This means that by examining the “Christian” life or works we can see the truth or falsehood, and from that understand one’s position regarding salvation.

    Trust me, I’m no advocate of “check the box” Christianity such that one can say, I’ve punched my ticket to heaven so I can kick back and live as I wish. Faith and life in Christ are living, not a dead or idle.

    I am just emphasizing that Christ Jesus’ love for us unto salvation is A FAITH which is grounded in an assurance of deliverance. This is so that we can then proceed in works in respect to and with regards to that very love. Failure in that is a failure to testify of TRUTH of FAITH IN CHRIST. Thus, your faith is dead and so is your salvation.

  160. PenguinTodd - July 30, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    Here is essentially my final posting on this. Let me layout faith, salvation, fruits and works in a direct manner.

    1) God created us and with free will.
    2) We sinned and came under his judgment and wrath of which the penalty is an eternal death (body and spirit).
    3) God calls us to him by His Word and His Spirit via the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
    4) Eventually, in an act of faith/belief we turn to God in repentance and ask for forgiveness of sins through the grace of Christ Jesus having shed His blood and having died on the cross as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins because of His obedience and His love unto God for the sake/benefit of mankind.
    5) God by His knowledge judges the truth of our claim before Him. If not sincere or truthful, then God rejects our claim but He continues to call us to His Word. If truthful, then HE CHOOSES us and places us IN CHRIST.
    6) By grace through faith, we do then eternally dwell in the Sabbath covenant established by Christ Jesus and whereby we receive the forgiveness of all sins (past, present and future) as well as the full righteousness of Christ Jesus.
    7) Christ then sends the Holy Spirit to dwell with us as our seal and witness of truth onto Christ. Further, we are anointed with gifts from the Holy Spirit for service within the body of Christ (Church of Christ).
    8) Christ as the author and finisher of our faith continues to work on us to draw us nearer to Him. This develops a deeper trust in His word so we can become a follower of Him. Jointly, we are lead in truth and sanctified by the Holy Spirit for preparation of good works (meaning Godly works not man-orientated works which are things of our own understanding and desires).
    9) As we empty ourselves we become Spirit Filled and then can go out in the world to do the WORK OF GOD as He commands us to do as we are now Spirit lead, hearing the voice of God, discerning His word and being empowered by the authority of Christ Jesus.
    10) Finally, our resurrection and judgment before Christ Jesus is for the works we do in the body for receipt of Kingdom rewards or loss of rewards. But, we who are IN CHRIST are not judged for our sins, for our sins were judged already having been placed on Christ on the cross and who’s death served as a righteous payment for our sins; thus, making us free children of the promise of God. Those not in Christ are judged by their works and by what was given to them.

    AGAIN, the point here is I am not doing works to do works/ to be busy before God to serve as a claim for salvation. Further, it is no longer ME doing works or even MY works. It is GOD doing the work through me and it is HIS work. This is the point that just doesn’t seem to get through.

    And, NO! Faith is not just I heard or read and I decided to accept it as my truth so now let me go sit on my butt and await my rapture into Heaven and NO it isn’t let me go out and work-work-work so I can be saved-saved-saved either. Each is a false salvation because each is completely man-driven. This is the falsehood that I keep trying to overcome in the thinking displayed on this site.

    It is God-established faith, God-given salvation and God-driven works (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!); it is not a man-constructed belief of faith, a man-acquired salvation and it is not man-driven works.

    As a final point, you are not saved for you– but for the GLORY OF GOD! This means for worship before God in heaven and for a witness before man here on earth. It is not about you; it is all about God. We are merely the benefactors of His grace! Praise the Lord!

    May there be peace, truth and blessings upon all!
    Your brother in Christ Jesus, PenguinTodd

  161. Roger - July 30, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    PenguinTodd, you came very close to the facts in this one paragraph:

    And, NO! Faith is not just I heard or read and I decided to accept it as my truth so now let me go sit on my butt and await my rapture into Heaven and NO it isn’t let me go out and work-work-work so I can be saved-saved-saved either. Each is a false salvation because each is completely man-driven. This is the falsehood that I keep trying to overcome in the thinking displayed on this site.

    but if anyone thinks God is going to take anyone by the hand and lead them through this world is living is fantasy land; everyone knows what’s right or wrong and our gift to God is to do the right thing (works). The Bible gives us instructions to follow as Christians or it would be totally useless except for how to obtain salvation. We are required to put an effort into our life to show that we really want the grace that we receive; if this were not true, why would Paul tell us to confess our sins one to another (a work)? God is not going to take my sins and tell them to anyone – it is our responsibility to follow ALL the instructions (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) which fulfills our belief and our works. As James said – faith without works is dead.

  162. PenguinTodd - July 30, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Roger, I think this statement by you defines the entire difference between us:

    “but if anyone thinks God is going to take anyone by the hand and lead them through this world is living is (sic) fantasy land;”

    You live an abandoned faith, feeling the full-weight of salvation by your hand. I suggest you read and meditate on Psalm 23 for by that statement above you just deny the entirety, in fullness, the meaning of the first verse as well as the rest of Psalm 23.

    I morn your loss of vision and conviction to rest onto Christ.

  163. Roger - July 31, 2013 at 1:43 am

    PenguinTodd, did God lead the Israelites (His wife) in their salvation, or did He destroy them when they got out of line?

    When we approach Christ for our salvation, our nature is changed if we have truly repented, we follow Christ even though we stumble – not quoting verses, you know them. I guess my question to you would be: why even read the Bible if God is in complete control of everything you do?

    Most do not even know what “repent” means and come far short of the mark: repent is to change ones mind and make a “vow” that you will not intentionally do that sin again. Jesus said several times to those whom He gave salvation: “go and sin no more”. An example of how strong a vow is was given in the story of Jephthah who sacrificed his daughter for God’s aid in winning a battle (Judges 11:29-39). God made a covenant with us and He does not go back on His word, should He expect any less of us?

    Ecc 5:4 When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it; For [He has] no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed–

  164. Roger - July 31, 2013 at 2:32 am

    PenguinTodd, I should have caught onto what you were referring to in Ps 23 before the reply below, but any how: Because we have the assurance of salvation, we have the hope of a better life through the Lord Jesus and nothing in this world is going to come between us and that hope unless “we allow it” – faith is the substance of things hoped for. Many times has adultery been committed and Paul said there will not be any adulterers in Heaven – did they have salvation before the “intentional act” (Heb 10:26-27); I will not judge.

    He will make us to lie down by still waters because we have assurance through faith by grace if we fulfill our part of the “vow”…

  165. PenguinTodd - July 31, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    I never said God does everything. I’m not a Calvinist. My comments were to point out that salvation is not something God just abandons us to “go work out” apart from Him. He is there every step of the way, to correct us when we need correcting, to direct us/guide us whereupon we have to learn to listen to Him and follow Him (insert passage of they hear my voice…)

    But, like a shepherd with the lambs we take our direction from Him as well as correction. He is faithful to forgive us if we ask Him. His is faithful to provide for us and to protect us and YES to deliver us for salvation.

    But, you’re not seeing that faith is the key that unlocks or starts everything. Without it you can’t have a relationship with God and receive all He has to offer; thus, you are left blind and hopeless. This includes salvation.

    When I read your posts I know you are concerned about people being true to God and fulfilling the Christian walk and about their salvation. I have great respect for you for having an honest concern about this. The issue is the solution you advocate versus what I am saying. You propose that for the “lukewarm Christians” (we’ll call them that for biblical honesty) is that they need to get to work.

    I’m saying that isn’t the solution for the problem. The solution is faith because that allows a person to build a proper relationship with God, such that it leads to good works. Otherwise, work without proper trust (faith) is just being a busy-body. Understand, our labor for Christ (work) is not to be a product of guilt (Catholic way), or obligation/owe it to God (Baptist way, Protestants in general) but a result of your genuine love for God for what He did on the cross.

    God isn’t saying I died for you, now you owe me big so get to work to pay me back because I am watching you and keeping tabs. That is not love. True love is unconditional; He did it all out of love!

    The world truly misses this point. That’s why when I read posts that say get to work if you want to be saved I rebuke it strongly, because it mocks God’s love. It mocks His love because it says it wasn’t genuine; that He only did it out of an expectation that you do something in return. Instead, He did it so you would KNOW true love and thus be MOVED by it. This is why He says, “IT IS FINISHED.”

    Consequently, faith leads us to a point where what it means to us is that we are IN LOVE with God and where we just can’t say NO to His calling anymore. Thus, I MUST go out in testimony for the sake of others! It becomes a heart-felt compelling out of compassion. This is why the Gospel of Christ is the only Gospel; the greatest Gospel!

    So, if you see “Christians” being lukewarm with Christ, that is that they are not moved, then you can see that they don’t have that love relationship with Him. They don’t get why they can trust Him, why there is a blessed assurance. They aren’t in love with Christ, with God, with the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament the law was written on stone tablets but with Christ, God’s promise was that He would write it on our hearts. He was talking about a love relationship that would never end.

    And, I keep trying to impress upon you that I work because of the love of Christ (out of it and for it) and not for my personal gain of salvation. I trust in His word that He will deliver me for salvation (that is trust, i.e faith).

    He loves you and nothing is going to separate you from Him once you make a faith exchange with Him that is contrite and rooted in truth. Those that don’t work, as you are trying to call them out, are those without that love relationship to Christ, hence they don’t have true faith. It isn’t something work is going to fix. This is something that can only be fixed by falling in love with Christ; and for that, they need true faith.

  166. Roger - August 1, 2013 at 4:28 am

    PenguinTodd, Just want to say that I appreciate you hanging with this and asking God’s blessing on you. I also know that you are rooted in Christ and putting every effort forward to show that.

    I think we are agreeing. My main point is that we have “free will” and if God controlled us, that would end. Also that we are expected to show our faith through our works – spread the Word, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.

    The one point that we may still be separated on is “can we lose our salvation”. Here is a scripture in several translations that may shed more light on that subject (add to Heb 10:26-27):

    1Tim 3:2-5 from NKJV to be combined with verse 6 below:
    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
    3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
    4 one who rules his own house well, having [his] children in submission with all reverence
    5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);

    (CLV) 6 no novice, lest, being conceited, he should be falling into the judgment of the Adversary.
    (KJV) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    (NKJV) 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the [same] condemnation as the devil.
    (NIV) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

    We know that the devil has already been judged and will simply be cast into the lake of fire.

  167. PenguinTodd - August 1, 2013 at 6:24 pm

    The scripture you reference is in regards to us making sound decisions in evaluating one another when it comes to placing someone in a leadership role in the Church (body of Christ). I believe the key phrase you have latched onto is the verse about not giving authority to a “newbie in Christ,” specifically 1 Timothy 3:6 (NIV) which translates to “… (the “newbie”) fall under the same judgment as the devil.”

    Whereby, emphasizing the part “judgment as the devil” meaning for you– God’s damnation of the devil; thus, the “newbie” would be damned (loss of salvation) just as the devil was judged and damned by God.

    However, that is not what this verse means. It is saying that the newbie would come to the same judgment of person that the devil did. As 1 Timothy 3:7 explains further, to come into the trap of the devil and fall into DISGRACE (not damnation).

    This is saying that the devil became arrogant and prideful and if you give too much authority to a newbie he will likely follow the same path of attitude. He will fall from grace from God– from a grace of blessings to a rebuke in chastisement (disgrace). This would harm the reputation of the Church as well.

    It doesn’t say fall into damnation or perdition, but fall into disgrace (public shame). This aligns better with your harp for works, such that we mature in Christ and demonstrate progressive-works such to be of a developed character with wisdom; whereby, we can ward off temptations by the devil.

  168. Roger - August 1, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    PenguinTodd Strong’s on condemnation:
    1. a decree, judgments
    2. judgment
    a. condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others
    b. in a forensic sense
    1. the sentence of a judge
    2. the punishment with which one is sentenced
    3. condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence
    3. a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court

    As I said before, like other, you are making the scriptures to read what is beneficial to you and not factual. There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that says anything about disgrace, but judgment as the devil receives – the eternal fire. Just as the other scriptures I gave – there is no sacrifice for willful sin after receiving the truth. If you sin intentionally, you will face judgment for it because there is no forgiveness – adultery. There is forgiveness for unintentional sin – a bad expletive for a mashed finger.

  169. PenguinTodd - August 1, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    I think the issue here is defining the biblical message into two parts: theology and teaching/instruction. Intrinsically it would seem the two should align, equal one another. They don’t. I’ll explain– as if anyone as this juncture doubted I wouldn’t expound on any subject. LOL!

    Theology is the understanding of the “what” from God’s perspective, where “what” is in this case: salvation. Teaching is what God says about the “what” as we are to relate to that “what,” in this case: salvation.

    Here is what I tell people about “Once Saved Always Saved” and “Loss of Salvation:” they are both flawed perspectives. The “Once Saved Always Saved” is rooted in solid theology but makes for terrible teaching. It is terrible teaching because it only comes up when someone is trying to “excuse” their sins such as to say, “But I’m still saved, right?” Thus, it is a terrible teaching via an implied statement, “Sure don’t worry about it, Once Saved Always Saved!” The “Loss of Salvation” is horrible theology but is rooted in a solid teaching/good for instruction. It is horrible theology because it undermines God’s word of what He has promised us. He doesn’t go back on His word. The problem doesn’t rest with God such to lose salvation, but rather it rests with man such not to have true faith.

    Think of theology as understanding God as He comes to us and teaching/instruction as understanding us going to God.

    Now, this isn’t a perfect example below but I think the message gets across.

    Let’s suppose there is this group of ten people who come to my house for some snacks, coffee and conversation every Friday. Now, suppose this Friday I tell them, he who trusts me (faith) and wears a red hat (an act of obedience/change: such as baptism) to next Friday’s gathering, I’ll give them $100.00. Now, I haven’t predestined any specific person to receive the $100.00. But, I did predestine the MEANS of receiving that $100.00. This is absolutely certain for I’ve set aside $1,000.00 for next Friday to hand out.

    The theology of “if you believe me, you will receive the $100.00” is absolutely assured. And, this is all Christ asks of us when He tells us that whosoever believes Him has/will receive salvation. But, he teaches us through His word that true belief manifests itself in us unto an action or change. In my example, I equate that to believers who get a red hat to wear at next Friday’s gathering.

    Now, suppose one man believed and purchased a red hat. Suppose he meets up with three others and sees that they don’t have red hats. It is good teaching/instruction for him to point out to the other guys, “Where are your red hats? After all don’t you trust Todd? He promised he would give us $100.00!” Two of the men say, “Nah, he was just messing with us. I don’t believe that.” The third guy just shrugs and says nothing really. Now Thursday comes and the man that believes sees again that third guy who shrugged. Further, he notices that he still doesn’t have a red hat. He implores the guy, “Hey why don’t you have a red hat, tomorrow is Friday?” The guy finally admits, “I don’t know where to get one and frankly I don’t have much money for one.” The guy with the hat has compassion for this man and takes him to the store and helps him buy a red hat.”

    Friday comes and all but two are wearing red hats at the gathering. I joyfully pass out $100.00 to each person with a red hat (assured). The two guys without one say, “Hold on a minute, there’s a store across the street let us go and get a red hat.” I say, NO for you didn’t believe in me and so you didn’t get a red hat, but now you want to go get one, but only for the sake of the money. Not the deal so no to you getting $100.00.

    Further, I come to know through the third man what the man who believed did such to help him get a hat so he could get the $100.00. I acknowledge that man’s work for he believed in me such to help this guy out. I give him the extra $200.00 I have and say, “This is for being faithful and believing me, for this is your reward.”

    All a person needs for salvation is to believe in Christ (Good Theology). But, understand that true belief results in a change in us (Good Teaching). That change (red hat in my example) then stands as testimony of your faith (James: I show you my works) but also stands as truth of God’s work in us so that others might come to faith as well.

    Hope this helps clarify what I’m saying about faith and works and why faith is the way to salvation and that there is assurance because it is bounded in God’s promise for us.

  170. PenguinTodd - August 1, 2013 at 7:56 pm

    In 1 Timothy 3: 6, the judgment is the work of the devil (like minded) not God’s judgment. It doesn’t say God’s judgement it says the judgment of the devil. If the intent of scripture here was to say God would then damn the man it would have said come under God’s judgment of damnation. It doesn’t do that. You are reading into it. The party written about here is the devil, not God.

  171. PenguinTodd - August 1, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    Further comment on 1: Timothy 3:6. All I’m saying is the passage serves as good teaching that those who are not matured in Christ if given too much authority too soon are likely to become prideful and arrogant, an attitude akin to the devil; thus in condemnation before God. But, the scripture ends there.

    All it is talking about is developing an attitude of the mentioned party– the devil. It doesn’t expound on the man being lost now and thus God has damned him in hell. I’m disagreeing with your insertion of now this man is damn by God, having lost his salvation and is/will burn in hell forever. You’ve made it a concluded theology.

    Christ referred to Peter as Satan himself! He said in Matthew 16:23: Get thee behind me Satan. He said this because he was being like minded of the devil. It was good teaching for Peter’s correction but not his damnation. But, by your theology Peter is burning in hell forever!

    But let us not stop with just Peter burning in hell. By your theology, let’s put Paul there too. Per your theology of loss salvation if one willfully sins then they lose salvation, we must say Paul too is burning in hell forever. For Paul admits what would equate to willful sinning as you have defined it in Romans 7:15: “… but I am doing the very thing I hate.” SINNING KNOWINGLY! (No need to even start with David and his lusts and murder. Solomon and all his concubines, that Abraham disregarded God’s word and had a child by a slave/servant.) That’s willful knowledge and by your theology Paul too must be burning in hell. If fact, by your theology I’d venture a guess that 99.99% of all “Christians” will burn in hell; the lone exception being yourself possibly.

    There is something wrong when we apply your understanding and it condemns the very men the bible tells us were Christ’s chosen men and empowered by the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t mesh with scripture.

  172. Roger - August 2, 2013 at 3:57 am

    PenguinTodd, again you want to twist the scripture to fit your needs. Read it for what it says and the is the some total of the meaning.

  173. PenguinTodd - August 2, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    I’m not twisting scripture. You have a deeply-troubling false understanding of scripture. You make coming to Christ a death journey. You teach that believers have no sacrifice and can’t be forgiven for salvation and thus must go to hell. But HEY, for the non-believers they have Christ for a sacrifice and can be saved; only they just have to wait until they are on their death-bed so as not to risk sinning again!

    Your ideas are so off the mark that they’ve become self-refuting. You sit in judgment of every other person while reserving salvation for yourself. You don’t even listen to sound logic for understanding.
    Such as if we apply your teachings to every person in the Holy Bible who was declared righteous by God, then they are found to be in willful sin and are thereby damned, having no sacrifice and are burning in hell.

    Fundamentally, you have not grasped Christ’s love, His sacrifice– the why and significance of it– grace, faith and that works are the fruit of the seed of faith. Faith to you is merely a statement of what you believe and nothing more: no life, no salvation; no nothing. Just a dead thought. For you there is no grace, only the law which we have to keep to be saved. You have not a theology of grace but a theology of law and works.

    You would have made a great Old Testament Pharisee. You would have stoned Jesus for His teachings and “violations” of healing on the Sabbath, for allowing His disciples to eat with unclean hands, for dining with a tax collector and for the various, unsavory company with whom He had associations.

    You promote a blatantly false gospel whereby salvation rests entirely on works and keeping the law. You deny the sufficiently of Christ’s sacrifice and God’s Word. You make salvation a labor of man whereby Christ only came to set an example for us and have His works recorded for us. You teach that salvation rests entirely on each person’s shoulders such that they have to keep the law and replicate what Christ did, if they want to be saved. For you salvation is not a past event, not even a present condition, but strictly a future accomplishment obtained by the works of each person’s hands.

    You promote salvation by the individual; PRAISE THE INDIVIDUAL!

    They only thing you get is sin. Probably because every where you look, you are apt to see it and then in quick judgment condemn each person. You wield a sword of death for every believer, except yourself. Apparently, you have no sins and are able to fulfill the righteousness of God by your own hands.

    I have long-suffered your false teachings. I have been gentle and kind with you; patient to share with you an encouragement of a strong faith in Christ for salvation. I implored you to come to His rest. I even commended you for efforts against sin in the believers. But, you’ll have nothing of it!

    Rebuking your teachings was in vain for it cannot penetrate the darkness that keeps you blind. I’ve grown weary of your promotion of self-work, self-work, self-work and damnation of believers! YOU is all YOU, trust in. I’m done hearing your destructive teachings and tossing pearls after swine. You are void of Spirit and trust in God.

  174. Roger - August 2, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    The initial repentance forgives all sins, but does not give you any additional rights to “intentionally” sin after that as I stated before. This again is your twisting of the facts to suit your needs. If you think that you can get saved and then murder someone, then the ball is in your court.

  175. PenguinTodd - August 11, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    I give you this reply not of my own choice but was lead to do so by God’s imploring of me. You have a proper concept of man in regard to time and thus sins past, present and future. However, you do not have a proper concept of God in regards to a timeline. God is not “was” or “will be”.

    Forgiveness upon being given by God is not a past action or a future one. It is. The Lord’s response given to me is this: I AM!

    The God that lives in me is always of the present condition for all things exist in relation to Him in present terms, not yesterday and tomorrow. Those are experiences for you and me. All things and conditions are all ready known to Him. Thus, my sins in future sense to me are forgiven sins to Him. But, the forgiveness of future sins is a future experience for me. I don’t lose Christ for the forgiveness of my sins in the future; I have Him so I can be forgiven. And, I don’t lose my salvation because it is something He gives me not something I take from Him by my hands.

    As for coming to Christ and then committing murder, it is forgiven. This is in the bible already. It is the story of David. David had a long relation with God and was declared righteous before God. Later, he committed adultery and murder. After a time, the prophet Nathan was sent to him to show him his sins. At which David repented and was forgiven, experienced for him.

    By your statements we only have a God for sins past and somehow no God for our future. I submit that if we don’t have God for our future, then we have neither God nor a future.

  176. PenguinTodd - August 11, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    I think part of the problem here is defining “intentional sin”. You defined it as any sin committed by a person with knowledge that it is a sin, yet does it anyway. That isn’t how the bible defines it. The bible defines “intentional sin” as a condition of the relationship between the person and God, defiant in person and thus action before God. There is no sacrifice for this sin. There is a reason too. Because one they don’t repent and two they are rejected by God.

    Sins committed by “mistake” or even per our lusts and weaknesses can be forgiven. We turn to God in repentance and they are forgiven of us.

  177. Roger - August 11, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    I see no scriptures on the definition of “intentional sin” and I also knew that David would come up.

    David did intentionally murder someone with one huge difference – it was without the realization of what he was doing through the flesh and lust, that is why God had Nathan confront him with a parable. The child that he fathered with Bathsheba was killed by God, Absalom raped all of David’s wives, Absalom was killed trying to take David’s kingdom and David had war the rest of his life.

    Another sin that David committed was the numbering of Israel and God reaped thousands of deaths because of that. God raised up Pharaoh for the purpose of destroying him.

    God said “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy” (Rom 9:15); “Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God” (Matt 4:7).

  178. penguintodd - August 11, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    I think we have some agreements here. Further, I couldn’t agree more on the “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” It is God’s judgment not ours.

    As for the definition of intentional sin I looked to the Jewish language and culture with an appeal to Strong’s translations for that understanding. In the Jewish perspective there are a multitude of ways (and hence different words) defining sin that relates to the act, the motivation, circumstances and nature of defiance before God. As we all know the Jewish language is more comprehensive than our English equivalent.

  179. Roger - August 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    One issue that enters into this is that David and God were working things out and now we have Jesus and I don’t think He is as lenient as His Father based upon one scripture:

    Matthew 5:28 (NKJV)
    “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    So looking at the other statement that Jesus made – “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” – and considering that He is doing everything He can to be like His Father, He is going to be more strict than His Father would be and He is currently the master of all things until it is all over and He assumes His kingship.

    I believe I will stick with:
    Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

  180. Dedrich - September 10, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    It is indeed a controversial topic and a divide seems to exist among believers.
    Some well known church institutions teach strongly that you can not loose your salvation. It is my personal opinion and conviction at this point of time that you actually can loose your salvation basis the scriptures quoted above.
    We are not free to live as we please as our lives have been prior Christ. Some us had less eventful lives prior Christ whilst others had very clear practices which were in opposition to God’s order and kingdom. I believe it is always good to use the extreme opposite to illustrate the matter in so called lighter situations.
    We have been purchased at a price.

  181. Joshua - September 18, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    I have never been certain about my salvation but this article seems well founded in scripture. In short, I am doomed. Though I sincerely believe in Christ and the Christian doctrine, I always felt out of place and unable to relate to other Christians. I’m still as hateful and bitter and lusty as ever, and while I do sincerely try to promote God there is no holy spirit in me. I guess I did lose it if I ever had it, and hope is now lost. Job and Jonah had it right: it is better to die than live.

  182. Roger - September 19, 2013 at 3:57 am

    Joshua, we all have problems and if we give up then Satan wins; is that what you want? Satan preys on weakness and we must keep looking to Christ for our salvation and keep moving forward. If you can take that first step, the rest will follow.

    Paul put it better than I can: Romans 7:15 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

    I don’t know how long you have been working at this, but keep up the effort and pray always. One thing that will help is fasting, it makes you more aware of who your goals are for – most of all it should be God and His Son, then for yourself.

  183. Dustin - September 20, 2013 at 11:12 am

    Roger, Did you say David did not know what he was doing??? Are you serious? you don’t have to be saved to know murdering, stealing, and committing adultery is wrong.

    Romans 2:13-15
    New International Version (NIV)
    13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

  184. Roger - September 20, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    Dustin, have you ever heard of the “flesh”? David sinned because he allowed the flesh to take power over him. If he had been in control, this would not have happened. How many things do you do every day that you regret?

    Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find.

    Rom 6:19 I speak in human [terms] because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members [as] slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness [leading] to [more] lawlessness, so now present your members [as] slaves [of] righteousness for holiness.

    Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

  185. Robben - February 13, 2014 at 7:57 pm

    I was saved in 86 and shortly walked away from the lord. I’ve commited some of them heavier sins hes talking about. I went away from the lord for 28 years, I sinned so bad. I repented a few weeks ago and reading this has spooked me so bad. im wondering if my name was blotted out of the book of life? all these years I felt something inside of me telling me to turn back to God. I didn’t reject it, I was weak and was afraid and stubborn to turn back to God. Im wondering if its too late an I waited too long. I don’t want to goto hell, I want to live a Christian life now and be fruitful for the lord. Please God, I hope you didn’t blot my name out and its not too late for me.

  186. Margo - February 21, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    Robben : Please do not be too hard on yourself. satan, thru his workers who have corrupted the Word of God via their weighing down the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ are to blame for your fears. Many of whom are right here. These people are self-righteous hypocrites who trust in their own performance in life.. their own merit.
    Whereas, we are to trust solely in Jesus Christ.. for our Eternal Salvation. These people deny Christs completed work on Calvarys Cross. They deny John 3:16-18. They deny any/all scripture that tells us that we are saved by grace alone, thru faith alone, in Christ alone. They deny the scriptures that tell us that God will finish the work that He started in us.. and that our Salvation is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. These people do not seem to understand that ETERNAL LIFE is just that… ETERNAL. Once it begins, it never ceases. Goes on forever.

    And these heretics use James 2 (out of context of course) to support their evil agenda.

    Robben, if you believe on Jesus Christ as Savior.. He saved you.. and you are still saved, no matter what. Jesus Christ keeps us saved. He saves us and seals it. Cannot be lost at any time for any reason.

    But, alas.. the heretics will tell you differently. Please just remember that is satan talking thru these puppets.

    I am very happy to hear that you have been working on your fellowship with the Lord. May your rewards in Heaven be plenty.

    God bless!

    Margo

  187. C-Man - March 24, 2014 at 11:18 pm

    Anyone who says that a believer can LOSE his SALVATION from God is like this parable:

    when a father realized that his son didn’t do what he was supposed to, then he said said “you are no longer my son. I am going to take my blood, my nature out of you, and my dna codes that I transferred unto you so you can no longer be my son.”

    Now, tell me if this is possible.

    If you are “born again in God”, can you be “unborn” to be “born again in Satan”? Lol

    The Devil is very clever. I mean, he was the first one to trick our first parent in paradise!!!!! And they were more innocent than us!!

  188. Roger - April 12, 2014 at 4:03 pm

    Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame.

  189. C-Man - April 12, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    The Falling away is about those who were never saved, even Jesus said that when true believers see the signs of his coming, they should rejoice.

    Why, if we are going through tribulation? Because those who have Christ in them will know he has come! 😀

    • Larry - March 10, 2016 at 9:55 am

      Then what are they falling from? Who determines who is true believers. If a believer has a relationship with the Holy Spirit, then they will know as John teaches. But why are there two sides of this if we all believe we are true and everyone else who does not believe as we do were never saved in the first place?

      God only knows, but we are to believe what he says. Jesus said many fall away from the faith, not many will fall from never being saved in the first place?

  190. Roger - April 13, 2014 at 5:18 am

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

  191. David - June 29, 2014 at 5:01 pm

    Hi people Of God,

    1. I agree completely with your cited verses and your interpretation of them. However, there is something interesting I should add..

    2. The Scriptures reveal that The Lord will not lose any of those The Father has given to Him. So having said that, the TRUE children of God will do as He as instructed and make it safely into Eternal paradise with the Lord in Heaven.

    3. The word says in 1 John 3, that the one who continues to sin does not know God or understand who He is, because the seed of Life in him does not permit him to do so(to sin that is). So… A person who is “saved” and then begins to practice sin doesn’t “lose salvation”, but really what he reveals is that He did not have True salvation to begin with. (Hard but true).

    4. Having said this, one will likely say “if this is the standard, then it means that most people I know that go to church but practice sin are not really children of God!?” I respond YES (Hard but true). It’s not really that hard to believe because the scriptures also say the the way to destruction is broad and easy with many people on its path; but the road to life is narrow and difficult, and few find it. (paraphrased).

    5. Only the 1 who overcomes the trials and temptations of this life, obeys the commands of God (by His word and His Holy Spirit) and does the WILL of God will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

    God has given us the Power to do so by His Spirit!

    • Larry - March 10, 2016 at 10:12 am

      Praise be to our Lord and saviour. Hi David, your correct God has given us the power to do so by his Spirit.

      The Spirit also wrote the scriptures that you also agreed with, so how can you speak for God and say that some one was never saved in the first place, which is totally unscriptural, it is not in the word of God. Read how all the disciples who were with Jesus, and 70 of these were also sent out to heal the sick and cast out demon, all ran away from him? Where the never saved in the first place? If the Holy Spirit writes something you better believe it, even if we do not like what he says.

  192. Jim - August 17, 2014 at 2:50 pm

    David, think about the parable of the lost sheep and the prodigal son (Luke 15). Some that have received salvation do turn from it, but they have the opportunity to return.

    Here is a scripture that seems to be ignored:
    Ezekiel 33:12 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of [his righteousness] in the day that he sins.’

    The meaning of the scripture:
    Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

  193. Larry - March 21, 2015 at 10:48 pm

    Once saved always saved
    It is more than just a subject that a believer can believe or not believe and it does not matter. I have discussed this subject with another believer with love but was rebuked in a manner that was what I believe the Holy Spirit would lead a believer to do. God’s word teaches that a born again believer will have a new nature when a born again believer walks in the Spirit and the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. All things that are necessary and needed to produce a new nature as a son of God and Jesus was our only example and we will be as he is, in this world and the next.
    Love can and will always prevail and never fail when born again believers have a relationship with the Holy Spirit that Jesus has sent to be in us just as he said. All believers will know him, just as Jesus teaches us. The bible and the Holy Spirit are one and the Holy Spirit is sent to teach believers the truth that came by Jesus Christ for he is Grace and truth. Eternal Salvation is in Christ and only by Christ and is by the Grace that the Holy Spirit will provide, we cannot in our selves obtain or keep salvation without him.
    Jesus said no one comes to the father unless he calls him. No one repents without Grace. No one has faith without hearing the word of God, for hearing of the word of God produces faith so faith is Grace. All sins of the flesh for the whole world have being washed in Jesus Christ blood and he died for all. To believe in Jesus Christ is the only way to know that everyone can receive this Grace of God.
    The article named scriptures that beyond a doubt are speaking to believers for it is impossible that anyone who have tasted of the Holy Spirit as Hebrew 4: are unbelievers or just professors as some say, for they would never have the Holy Spirit to even accepted Jesus Christ as savior and professed with their mouth faith in Jesus Christ 1 Corintians 12:3 and 1 John 4:2.
    There is no doubt that the Bible teaches that to be born again we must abide in Christ and his words must abide in us. Everything is dependent on our relationship in Christ by the Holy Spirit. The message of eternal life in Jesus Christ absolute truth but is the teaching of once saved always saved the same message? Paul taught all the churches to be one in the faith and be not deceived by every doctrine of men. Jesus taught in the end days many will fall away, an unbeliever is already in that condition. If once saved always saved is what Jesus taught then he would never of said that many will fall away, his message would end with no warning just believe in me and John 3:16 would be the end of his message.
    Once saved always saved? Paul said that he persevered and has fought the good fight of faith. Never did he teach that no matter what we believe about doctrines or errors of faith we will still be saved. Galatians he told believers who were saved by believing in Jesus Christ that were in unbelief again that anyone who teaches another Gospel would be accused. If he believed that these saved believers would always be saved, then he would never of needed to says this. He would of only said they were in error he would not have need to warn them that they could be accused for their unbelief.
    Any believer with the Holy Spirit in them would in Love seek truth and they will find it. All of us as believers need to have the Holy Spirit’s love flow out of us to seek truth and any time we do not find it then we must in perseverance seek it. Love will provide perseverance and a believer does not need to wait until they get to heaven to know truth for the Holy Spirit is here to give it.
    Matt 7: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Believe and seek and all will find. These verses can and will give the answers to every question a believer may have about truth for the Holy Spirit is love and will not fail. He has come to teach truth, our part is hear to believe and obey and this is not works, for he will do it for us as we die to self.
    Every believer who loves enough to seek truth and share it with others will question and ask in that same love. Truth is love and will be found by those who seek it. Love is not an argument for truth, love is the result of truth.

    • Larry - May 17, 2016 at 10:40 am

      Satan and his demons are not christians period. A christain is called by God or they would not have come on their own same as anyone who believes in Christ. Satan can only affect us by our own choices. God has done everything we need in he gives us the god given right to choice to live by the Spirit or to live by what we choose as truth so does he force us to save regardless if we obey him

  194. Ewa - May 20, 2015 at 10:05 am

    Hello Author,
    you said “The Bible says that we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with the Lord and that nothing can break this seal, no matter how many bad and evil sins a person may commit after getting saved.”
    That is not what the Bible said the Bible said nothing can break this seal, what that means exactly is that the person who “is born again” is INCAPABALE of EVER sinning again. The HOLY SEAL is protecting reborn Christian.
    God Bless

    • Rev.Dr. R. Bolling Sr. - May 16, 2016 at 10:12 am

      The statement that we can’t sin again after being saved is not true. Remember we have not yet taken on the incorruptible body so therefore the desire to sin is still present it is up to the individual to choose not to. The present of the holy spirit is our protection against the power of sin. But just as God the Father doesn’t force his will on us in this matter. For God wants us to choose not to sin but rather rely on Him in the person of the Holy Spirit. that’s why it’s extremely to maintain a sure relationship with Christ God the son. Because He is the light of the world as well as the light of man. And I don’t believe that one can loose salvation because God is not a man that He should lie.

      • Larry - May 17, 2016 at 10:55 am

        Dr Bolling by your comments what does it matter if you sin or do not. You said God does not so where does he say no matter what you believe or even if you sin your saved for ever? God does not lie about what Jesus did for all man kind that is his seal by Christ through Christ not because we believe he has to save us no matter what? If faith is because we believe even in error then all men should be saved for that is who he died for, all. Error means nothing with always saved no matter what.

  195. Mike Mobk - January 5, 2016 at 12:36 pm

    Many questions have been raised, and many different and disturbing revelations as to their true meaning. I certainly can’t understand all. I really don’t believe anyone can. That’s why we have our hope and our faith in heaven’s mysteries. I will say, however, that there are head Christians and heart Christians. Satan and his demons are good examples of head Christians. (Knows truth but unaffected) Jesus knows his heart Christians.
    Mike

  196. kevin i - January 27, 2016 at 11:36 am

    if we are crucified with christ than we shall be and are with him always, the falling away verses have to do with fellowship and not loss of salvation! the once enlightened verses are speaking to the zealous jews who heard the truth, were enlightened but never really did come to accept it! the bible does not contradict itself and there are answers for what would seem to contradict john 3:16 and many other verses! when the apostle paul told the phillipian jailor : believe in the lord jesus christ and thou shall be saved! : did he tell him a false gospel? should he of said but dont fall into sin or you will lose it? no! you see all our sins past present and future are paid for, by the shedding of our lord and saviors blood! ie: without the shedding of blood there IS NO remission of sins: as far as revelation and the book of life is talking about hose wgo have the possibility of salvation during the tribulation Blessings

    • Larry - March 8, 2016 at 10:40 am

      You have a god concept of what God will do, but when you believed you did something to accept his Grace or did he force you to accept him whether you like it or not? Same as sinning, you choose to sin for God did not force you to. Yes if you turn again to him, then he will accept you again as he clear tells us, but if you do not, then does God have to honour his covenant with you, when you were the one who broke it? The two natures, read

      No believer who stays in love with him and walks by his Spirit will not sin, the Bible is clear. The seal of the Holy Spirit is God’s seal about what he has provided in Christ, God does not seal you to anything but your own word and your own choices, he is not a God who makes any one do what they will not give him. If that was true then why does he not just make us love him so we all can be saved? In fact why did he not just do that for his choosen people the Jews, then we all would be in God’s garden and none of this would have happened. Just because we believe does not mean God take our will away or leaves us with it and we can do as we please because Jesus Christ Blood covers all sin.

      What Jesus Blood did for man kind was done before he created us, so why are not all saved now? No believer as your self who knows God and love him and obeys what he has commnded us has to worry about this. The problem is “always saved no matter what believers” believe even if they choose to sin, God scriptures of what is in Christ they use to vid all his warns as if God has to saved them, no matter what.

      I personally love my fellow believers to tell them, this doctrine of men “always saved no matter what” is not in God’s word. If you can find it, then enlighten all of us, for I am open, I do not think more highly of myself to ignore any scripture that is 100% infallible as we read it. Doctrines of men contradict God’s word not scripture.

      In the Love of God that is in Jesus Christ, may truth be heard.

  197. kevin i - January 27, 2016 at 12:15 pm

    we have salvation not probation! it is finished!! we wouldnt have much of a savior or father if he kicked us out the story of the prodigal son should tell us a lot the son received his inheritance but missed out on many blessings, when he returned his father was joyful and blessed him greatly, we can go astray even willingly and we will indeed reap what we sow! but never will we lose our inheritance that is how strong Agape Love is! giving and expecting nothing in return! as for me i am lost without him ,i love him, and if it ever depended on me to get to heaven i would be in trouble!

    • Larry - March 8, 2016 at 12:55 pm

      Hi again Kevin, why are you so upset about what God will do? You know you can not get yourself in heaven, that is good.

      There are also many who believe this doctrine “always saved no matter what” and yourself have seen some who you have doubts about. Ask them, they will tell you they are saved no matter what? If you really believe that nothing matters then for get about it, whether it is this site or anyone believes different then it does not matter to you correct? Those who do know different, at least they are trying to do as James 5:19-20 commands believers to do. You do not want to then may God be the judge and not a doctrine of men.

      God’s Agape Love is not in question or he would have saved everyone before he made us or it means he made some to love and save them and all the rest he made on purpose not to Love them and throw all of them into the fire to burn for ever on purpose?

      God loves us in Jesus Christ, not in what we think scripture says or does not say, the flesh means nothing to God.

  198. kevin i - January 27, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    @ ewa- if we say we have no sin wqe lie and the truth is not in us, we are sinners saved by grace but we do sin, check out the church of corinth and galatia, but when we do sin we have an advocate with the father, 1st john 1:9 tells us what we should do when we sin. when we sin we lose fellowship and blessings but never our salvation

    • Larry - March 8, 2016 at 1:34 pm

      Hi again Kevin, You have brought up Corinthians and Galatia and in another e-mail you said things about Revelation ” blotting out names in the book of life?”

      Corinthians is about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that some believe do not exist. Galatians is about the Gospel and how it was being perverted and Revelations was to the Seven Churches of the early Church who were told to repent by God himself.

      All believers would honor God himself if we made these scripture into a need for study and in all out prayer to know the truth about Salvation and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. All are the very heart of who God is and should not leave believers so divided on truth. I do not see in his word that believers can have a multiply choice on what he actually says in his word.

      The book of life is about those who are saved? Correct? Then why is there 4 times in God’s word where he said he would remove their names from this book if they never can lose their salvation? Exodus 32:33; Psalms 69:28 Rev. 22:18-19; Rev. 3:1-6

      Hebrew 6, you want to say this was about the Jews who never received the truth, yet you admitted that they were enlighten? How if they never had the Holy Spirit to enlighten them to the truth? The New Testament is to believers in Jesus Christ of all ages about how to live by faith. Not a book to point out how every believer in the early church failed but believers today can not?

      I love you Kevin and God loves us so much he gave us the Bible and the Holy Spirit to know truth and the Body of Christ is to be one in the faith. Is it not time that this bickering ends and truth will be heard, God commands it, should we ignore him because a doctrines tells him, he has to save us, no matter what we believe?

  199. Pat - December 10, 2016 at 7:28 am

    Why do you all argue? Why do you feel the need to disagree on so many points? Are you all theologians? Do you each know something no one else knows?
    Jesus is the LORD. He came, he conquered the souls of men (and women), HE was subjected to a horrible, gruesome death, HE ROSE AGAIN. HE LIVES.
    It is all the talking, expounding on one theory or another that SO DIVIDES PEOPLE; Differing viewpoints, said with a personal conviction only confuses people. STOP!!
    You do NOT need to beat the TRUTH to death. His is the narrow way. If you think have supposedly chosen the Narrow Way, but fall into SIN because of your own personal willfulness, LOST your Way, are you LOST? It is simple. We live in a complex world, filled with lusts, and sin and hopelessness. People choose to go one way or another, thinking they have chosen the True way, based on what they are taught in a church. But, have they “gotten it?” That is the question. If you have heard the voice of the LORD and then lost it, you have then lost your Key to the Kingdom. Stop confusing the issue and arguing. You are wasting time and leading people on a path to confusion, doubt, fear and despair. STOP IT! Try TALKING TO THE ONE WHO IS YOUR LIGHT, YOUR HOPE. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. THEN LET YOUR LIGHT SHINE LIKE A BEACON OF HOPE FOR ANY WHO WOULD SEE IT, IN THIS DARK DARK WORLD. That’s it.

    • Melissa Minter - September 3, 2017 at 2:53 pm

      After reading this article I feared I had lost my salvation.

      After reading this article my heart broke and I cried out in despair, to think that God has forsaken me and wont let me back into the Kingdom of Heaven because I went my own way after committing my life to Him.

      In the past I had committed atrocious sins from the 10 commandments and since had repented and heard his voice I committed my life to him at that time. It was only a few years after that (present time) that I knew I was far from God. I have re-committed my entire life, my spirit, my soul, and my body to him. So every time I read this and see that you can lose your salvation, even though I am running back into his arms again and turning against my ways and repenting and turning my entire life over to him, it scares me to think IT IS TOO LATE. When I read the bible in Hebrews 6:6 it says “and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God..” I have repented for my sins and drifting away from God and dabbling in ungodly things, BUT I have NEVER rejected the Son of God, I have NEVER renounced my faith in the believe of Jesus Christ. I am saved. It is the hardening of hearts of a man who has known Jesus and then turned his back on him RENOUNCING his faith and one WHO DOES NOT REPENT that is not saved, for only through Jesus Christ can we be saved. It is anyone who rejects Christ that will not be saved. So if you have drifted away, you have broken the 10 commandments and you repent and mean it with all your heart, he forgives you, you must turn from your sinful ways.

      When I read this article I felt I was damned to hell that there was no way I was to be let back into the kingdom of heaven even though I never stopped believing in Him. I turned my life back over to Christ completely. This article wouldn’t have been so heartbreaking if there was information on how you can be saved if you turn from your sinful ways and repent. That there is hope. The article makes it seem that if you ever gave your life up to Him and then went your own way, that there is no hope, no matter what you do, no matter how you plead with Him that he wont hear you. That is the most terrifying thing I have experienced in all of my existence. It feels like a nightmare you cannot wake from.

      So I pray that those who read this article get clarity from God as you read the scriptures and read THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURE in the verses mentioned in the article to get the whole picture.

      May God Bless Everyone of you and I hope that you believe that IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO TURN YOUR LIFE BACK OVER TO GOD. AMEN.

      • Maria - February 3, 2018 at 7:29 am

        Dear Melissa, Do not miss the most important point of the author. I also agree that a previously born again believer can lose their salvation only if they utterly turn their backs on their Savior. Clearly you, despite your backsliding, have a heart that has a desire to please the Lord. Yet out of sheer weakness, have stumbled. Nevertheless, your cries to the Lord for deliverance, have been heard as you confessed your sins. The difference, with those mentioned in Hebrews, is that they have continued in their depravity—fully knowing that what they are doing is an afront to the Lord. They no longer fear the Lord & their consciences become seared. Their presumption on unconditional salvation is a deception & hence, God will not be mocked. He will eventually declare to them: Depart from Me, I never knew you, you who practice iniquity (lawlessness.) So be certain of this: if you stay connected to the Vine which is Jesus Christ & abide in Him(pray for overcoming power in the Holy Spirit, seek Him in His Word, obey His commandments, be in the world, but not OF the world—not falling into the sins of the world,) & you will reap His sure reward of eternal life with Him forever! Be of good cheer & put your faith in Him! Amen!

  200. Warren - February 16, 2017 at 7:12 pm

    So I came across this site whilst looking for more information about Christianity and how one finds salvation through Christ. Lately I’ve found myself drawn to try and better my relationship with Jesus Christ and the Holy Father. So I’ve been reading, and praying, a lot. I wouldn’t say I’ve ever not believed, I’ve just never heard the right message until recently, and it’s woken me up.

    Now I’m by no means an expert on this subject, I’m basically just only getting into the depths of Christianity and trying to learn the right way to find salvation through Jesus Christ… but something I’d like to add to this discussion is this: I didn’t read through all the comments here, there are a lot, but the many I did read sway from “God says His salvation is eternal, so it’s eternal.” to “God will not be mocked and you can lose your salvation.”

    Something I haven’t seen though is reference to ones covenant with God. PLEASE do correct me if I’m wrong (like I said I’m still learning) but from my readings of various material online, offline, The Bible, Christian books etc, there’s always reference to this covenant. A covenant means a contract or agreement. This tells me that it comes down to this: You give yourself to God through Christ, believe in him, profess your faith etc, and you will be saved. That’s sort of the signing of the contract by both parties. That doesn’t mean it’s done, and that it is binding forever, surely.. a contract has clauses and stipulations that must be met during the duration of the contract. In short: If God gives you salvation because you accept Christ as your Lord and believe that he died for our sins etc and essentially become a “Born-again Christian” then surely that’s only the beginning and your contractual obligations from “signing” said contract through the acceptance of Christ, are to be a good Christian and live by the laws that God gives us in his Word? That’s your part of it, God’s part of it is to give you eternal life, as He wants to. My interpretation of a lot of these versus, and just something that makes sense to me, is that they are telling us that this contract can be broken if you don’t keep up your end of it. It’s not God who breaks the contract, He is perfect and his Word is eternal so from His point of view that contract will stand forever. It’s us who break our part of the agreement and lose our own salvation by our own actions. God will never turn away from us, but we can turn away from him. So surely it’s wrong to claim that “If God says forever, we’re saved forever.” You still have contractual obligations to fulfill through your covenant with Jesus Christ our Lord and God the Father, surely? I don’t believe that God punishes in the ways we seem to have interpreted. It’s us who do it to ourselves. One of the most profound moments of my life was during a severe crisis of faith, and I was grieving and hurting and drunkenly railing against a Christian friend who was being exceptionally patient with me. I simply asked him “why an all-loving God would damn a person to hell or punish them or cause them suffering etc.” and he smiled and told me that I had it backwards. “Hell is the absence of God, Warren. That is a choice you make, not God. He’s always there, always, but if you walk away, you can’t blame Him for your own self-inflicted misery.” I’ve never been sobered up so quickly in my life or heard such truth in another mans words. It was profound really. I feel that maybe that logic and that rationale makes even more sense in the context and subject of this article.

    Anyway just some thoughts I’d like to share, please comment, reply, talk to me, I’m still learning and really trying to find my way.

    The current question I have constantly burning in my head is how does one know if you’re saved? I’ve heard so many Christians tell me they’re born-again or they’ve been saved etc. I ask them how they know and I’ve had so many diverse responses I can’t find any consistency. I’ve been praying a lot lately, trying to fix my relationship with Jesus Christ and our Lord and to be born-again or become a Christian or however it’s termed. For some reason of late this has become very important to me.. I like to think maybe this is a call? Now how do I know if I’ve been saved? Why does this still bother me so much? I am not at peace, I am so uneasy about all of this, like this weird desperation to be at peace with God, to do the right things and be whatever He intended me to be. I pray often, and in some cases literally just talk to God and express my fears, my sins, talk, ask for help, whatever’s going on.. I’ve said many a prayer similar to the “Sinner’s Prayer.” etc..

    But how do you know?

    • Larry - February 28, 2017 at 1:02 pm

      Wow Warren, your there. I have not gone on this site for awhile, it was just arguing between born again believers on both sides of this argument, yes I said bron again on both sides, even though one side can speak as God and say others are not saved the first time they accepted Jesus Christ.

      You have truth as a new believer because God told you the truth and you believed. You know the truth by who is in you. That is how you know your born again. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
      1 John 2:3 (KJV) 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
      1 John 5:2-4 (KJV) Your victory is in what you believe by faith. Jesus Christ provides salvation and that is the Love of God that is in Jesus Christ and nothing can change that, even if no one believe it. But you must act and believe, it is a choice the same as sinning, it is a choice. You explained your walk in Christ as the truth, your abiding in him, you can know your saved, that is why he is in you. A belief or a doctrine will never make you feel secure, only a personal relationship with him and you will know.

  201. Shifter - March 21, 2017 at 9:47 pm

    You have to rightly divide the word of truth as the bible states to do in 2 Timothy 2:15.

    The doctrine of the Church are in the books of Romans through Philemon.

    The book of Hebrews is written for Jews hence the name Hebrews which are Jews.

    The book of Hebrews is likely written for those who will end up going through the tribulation period during which one can lose their salvation if they take the mark of the beast.

    Also Jesus statement about enduring to the end to be saved is also meant to be for those who will end up going through the tribulation period.

    Rightly dividing is very important when I comes to understanding the bible and a lot of people don’t do it correctly.

  202. LeAnna Benn - June 3, 2017 at 6:33 pm

    I am so very impressed and thankful for your clear and positive information. I teach a couple Bible studies to recovering addicts and reentering felons. I appreciate the opportunity to do that under my pastor’s authority and they ask me all the questions you discuss on your website.
    May I make a copy for my own use of many of the articles to use with them?
    I will give you credit, include the URL for the article and will not change the content.

    • Mike Bradley - June 12, 2017 at 1:09 am

      If you’re talking about printing a copy to use with them then sure, feel free.

  203. Sherry - August 23, 2017 at 8:15 pm

    Thank you for your very informative study…it is probably the best most conclusive one I have found. I have someone close to me that I love very much….Sadly they were a Christian for over 30 years ..during that time they had married two non Christian’s. Then married another Christian later divorced…Then a few years later was involved in a non Christian relationship…where this person in five years never went to church with them…They were in this relationship while being on the praise team of their church…
    Sadly…now what has been going on in their life is complete torment….they cry everyday…for five years….they feel like there is a monster inside of them where the Holy Spirit used to reside….
    This is your conclusion living in front of me daily…
    This situation has helped me continue to guard my heart , stay in the word and keep myself in the presence of my Heavenly Father…
    It is horrible to watch and I pray God’s mercy…but to no avail..even after five years…
    Please readers….take note…bewhare..guard your heart with all diligence…
    Satan is a deceiver…he deceived this person….I do not want to be next…

  204. Andrew Swan - September 29, 2017 at 10:29 pm

    Have you entered in? Can one be unborn again? can you be taken out of the Lamb’s book of Life? As fare as the east is to the west, will God remember your sins? Can you be separated from the love of God? Many people don’t consider that the book of Hebrews was written to the Jews; those that were under the law. Paul would hand over some to satin for the destruction of the flesh; but in the end the spirit will be saved, yet as by fire. Faults teachers are those that do not rightly divide the word of truth! The bible tells us, those that brake one of the least of the commandments, and teach men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. If any one reads this, and is truly caught in the gap; Respond to my email, and I will give you a long list of scriptures of God’s promises to those that Jesus knows……I went through a lot of years of constant backsliding; in the fear of losing my salvation. I have ben at the edge of death many times; being in a state of drunkenness, drug induced, sinfully lusting. At the lowest times in my life God’s Holy Spirit would speak to me the Words Andrew I will never leave you nor forsake… We will prove to any one that once you have ENTERED IN, And Jesus dos truly know you; planted into your Spirit, God’s holy Seeds of Love…….

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