Praying To Dead Saints

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Should We Pray to Dead Saints?

There are verses in the Bible that say that we are not to try and communicate with the dead. The “dead” are those humans who have already died and passed over to the other side – whether it be to heaven or to hell.

I believe God is telling us with the word “communicate” that we are not to even try and pray to them.

The reason is obvious. They are in heaven.

They are not omnipresent like God is. And even if someone should try and pray to them – there is no way that person would even hear your prayers to begin with unless God would allow it or would transmit the prayer to them.

Even though that dead saint is up in heaven – this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God’s full, supernatural power to answer your prayer in the first place – and who probably will not even hear or pick up your prayer anyway, since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met.

There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament – but He did not!

The reason for this is because God the Father is a jealous God. He, and He alone, is our one and only true God and Father. He, and He alone, is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.

Jesus’ death on the cross has now opened up the gates to heaven. The Bible tells us that we can now boldly approach the throne of God for prayer and intimate communication anytime we want. If you will notice, it says to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!

I personally believe that when some people start praying to dead saints instead of going direct to God the Father, I think they may actually be hurting God’s feelings.

Here God is, sitting up in heaven, only wanting to help us in this life – and then all of a sudden He sees one of His own going direct to a dead saint who has no supernatural power on his own to answer any part of their specific prayer request.

However, I know He knows that many of His people do it out of ignorance because they really do not know what the Bible says about all of this, and they do not understand how the big picture is all set up.

Here are some specific Scripture verses telling us that we are not to attempt to commune with the dead. The clue is in the word “medium” or “spiritist.” A medium is one who attempts to call up the dead in order for that person to be able to communicate with that dead person. This is what you call a basic seance.

There are several well know mediums right now who are all over the place on TV actually doing séances for people to try and reach their dead loved ones. If God the Father is condemning this kind of activity as you will see in the following verses – then I also believe that you can extrapolate on this and assume that God does not want you trying to communicate direct with the dead even on your own.

If God does not want a medium trying to contact the dead for you – then I also believe it is safe to assume that God does not want you trying to contact the dead through any kind of prayer effort on your own. When you start trying to pray to a dead saint, you are attempting to try and communicate directly with the one you are praying to.

Bottom line:

  • God the Father is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
  • God has it set up through His Son’s death on the cross that we are to approach His throne, and His throne alone, with any of our specific prayer requests. He does not want us going to anyone else, either in heaven above or on this earth.

We can ask others down here to pray for us and with us, to pray in agreement with us, but we are not to pray direct to any human down here for them to actually answer any of our specific prayers.

So if it would be ridiculous for us to pray to someone else down here on this earth to actually answer any of our specific prayers, then it only stands to reason that it would be just as ridiculous to pray direct to a dead saint up in heaven to answer any of our specific prayers.

The other question some people have on this is if they can pray and ask a dead saint to pray direct to God for them as an actual intercessor. Again, even doing this is still an attempt to try and communicate with this dead saint, and as such, I do not believe God wants us doing this. There are enough people down here on this earth that we can ask to pray for us and with us without having to go direct to dead saints who are living up in heaven.

The Scripture Verses

Here are 4 very good verses specifically telling us that we are not to have anything to do with “mediums” or the “calling up of the dead.”

  • “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)
  • Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
  • And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
  • “So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)

Notice the words “calls up the dead,” and the statement that God makes that this practice is an abomination in His eyes! When you are attempting to call up the dead, you are attempting to try and directly communicate with them.

Notice that God uses the word “prostitute” as an analogy. You are prostituting yourself against God when you start seeking supernatural help or guidance from any one else but Him!

King Saul got into big trouble with God when he asked a witch to call up the prophet Samuel who had already died. He literally incurred the wrath of God when he did this, and this eventually led to his downfall and early death.

Notice the verse says that the reason Saul was trying to call up Samuel was for guidance. Instead of going direct to God the Father for the guidance that he was needing, he tries to contact one of God’s dead saints. Samuel was a great man and a great prophet of God, but God was wanting Saul to come directly to Him for any guidance that he was needing, not to a dead saint!

This story is a perfect example showing that we are to go directly to God the Father if we need any help with anything, not to any dead saints who are living up in heaven.

Also notice the very intense language that God is using when He is warning us not to attempt to try and communicate with the dead.

He is telling us that it is an “abomination” in His eyes, and that He will set His face against us if we try and do it. He also says that this kind of activity “defiles” us in His eyes. I do not think God could give us any more of a stricter warning on this issue than by the way that He has worded all of the above Scripture verses.

Even though some people are not consulting mediums when they are trying to pray to dead saints, I believe they are still trying to communicate directly with them through their direct prayer efforts and they are thus violating a basic direct commandment from the Lord on this issue.

I do not know if this will help your friend or if she will agree with any part of this, but those are my thoughts on this issue and what I feel God is trying to tell us through His Word on this subject.

Many people are engaging in séances these days, as it is a big part of the New Age Movement. Trying to do any part of this could be major door openers to the dark side. Demons can definitely come in on some of these people who try and play this game.

Many times, the medium is literally taken over by a demonic spirit masquerading as a dear, departed, loved one, and a demon is literally speaking through the medium’s vocal cords imitating the departed love one.

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  1. The true church of Christ in the bible is not a building or a temple but we, the people is the church, his true brides are the people who are seeking Him and having a one on one relationship with Him. God loves us all, we are all His children. But Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen. Many will call Him, “Lord’ Lord” But He will tell them plainly “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Many honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. They worship Him in vain because their teachings are merely ‘human rules’. Many false prophets in sheep clothings shall rise misleading the mass. Who are we going to follow? Those who defend their church from Jesus’ teachings love their church more than Jesus. We will be judged by the Lord in His coming and there will be no more excuses. The Church will not save us, not a salvation prayer, not pastors, not dead saints, He is our one and only saviour. I can’t help you, people can’t, you need to seek the Lord with all your hearts and walk with Him. Repent and grab His hands. I encourage everyone, all brides of Christ should unite. We should check our spirits because not all receive the gift of holy spirit. We will know if we have the holy spirit because it will guide us to the truth. We will no longer desiring for earthly things but we are seeking the Kingdom of God. It is written that a friend of the world is an enemy of God. I’m 19y.o from Asia, an ex-Catholic because the Lord called me out. And now, I don’t belong to any denominations. The Lord told me to follow Him only, not a man, not a religion because they have mixed their beliefs with pagans and human teachings that are unpleasing to Him. He is not pleased. It’s the beginning of His wrath, wake up. The Lord loves us so much that he doesn’t want anyone of us to perish. He is patient for our sake. The Lord can shake this earth very easy. Floods, earthquakes and etc can be the sign of His coming or it represent His anger. He is in full control. I am not unkind to Catholic people, I love them, I know they love God but consider it as a warning. Because the Lord gave me a message to encourage and don’t let anyone go away without stopping them. He is warning out of love because He cares for our souls. There will be no mercy without repentance.

  2. I had left this conversation as it seemed to be the battle of catholics vs others,alot of defending going on,where us as Christians our only truth should come from one true book- the word of God, as for me I will follow the bible truth only,
    I came across this article and had to share. A frank and honest admission from the Catholic Cardinal Henry Newman in his “Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine”, admitting that the Catholic Church adopted and absorbed paganism into the Catholic Church!

    some qoutes from this article.
    “Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the very instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use, and feeling also that these usages had originally come from primitive revelations and from the instinct of nature, though they had been corrupted; and that they must invent what they needed, if they did not use what they found; and that they were moreover possessed of the very archetypes, of which paganism attempted the shadows; the rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should the occasion arise, to adopt, to imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace, as well as the philosophy of the educated class.”

    (Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879, 1878, p351-353)

    “The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”

    (Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879, 1878, p351-353)

    coming from one of them its so clear it adapted paganism into their church in order to draw more people to church..this is clear cut, if you mix water with poison..it will be deadly it doesnt matter if it looks like water, you drink it you die, its simple paganism and christianity cant mix, its either you follow the Bible truth, or you are on the other side,

    true about the miracles..the best story in the bible, when Moses was facing Pharaoh and his gods, they did the same “miracle” he did, turning the stick to a snake, so yes there can be all sorts of miracles, even in the new testament as Jackie pointed out they will come false prophets perfoming many miracles. My people will Perish of lack of knowledge, the truth is out there dont let no man tell you whats true, pray to God and He will lead you to the truth.
    I have been born and raised catholic and now at the age of 32 I went down on my knees and asked God for knowledge, the reason was, 2 priests had come on to me,I refused and one even refused to talk to me and told my family a different story about why he aint talking to me, sadly my family believed him over me ofcoz he was a priest! sadly he passed on, and from that I didnt desire to even go to church anymore, but I said i wont let 2 men make me not have that r/ship with God, so I went down on my knees and truth is coming to me daily. exposing the catholic church.

  3. Jackie:

    Let’s not consider all miracles are from God. Because it is written, that an enemy of God can perform miracles. Jesus reminded us that many false prophets shall rise and perform miracles, and in the book of revelation, we can read about the beast that can perform miracles to deceive people. It’s an enemy of God.
    Do not be deceived. Many preachers out there are false. Do not follow them, they think they have Jesus in their lives but they don’t know the real Jesus because they don’t have the truth, they are just blinds who lead the blinds, misleading people. They are false brides of Christ. They are not persecuted. Rosary prayer like you said is just a garbage from Hell. Satan made all false doctrines and beliefs in many churches and perform miracles.

    We need to seek Jesus with all our hearts. Our personal relationship with Jesus is the most important, putting Him first in our minds and in our hearts. Relationship with Jesus begins in our faith. And when you are already in a relationship with Him, He will guide you to the truth. He will become our everything, we love Him more than ourselves.
    I believe in my relationship with Jesus because I’ve seen a lot of evidence. I know Him because I love Him so much. If you are not putting Him first in your heart and mind and still living in the lifestyle of this world, not doing His will but your will, desiring worldy things and goals, then you have not surrendered your life to Jesus, that means you are not walking with Him. I’m living in His presence and I feel deep love for Him. So I believe the truth in me, I do not believe in any doctrines that the church teaches. The truth can only be found in the Bible. Jesus taught me that Christmas, Easter and Valentines are pagans. He protected me from all pagans and false beliefs. I have a communication with few God’s true servants and we have the same beliefs. They are followers of Jesus that are scattered. Jesus appeared to them in dreams many times and gave them messages to warn people.
    I do not want to argue but my spirit says to warn. I say this message with love coz I love all God’s people and I want them to be saved. Jesus has a beautiful peaceful eyes, and will look furious in the judgement day. He is loving but He is just a judge. His day is coming but many are not ready. Kingdom of God is hard to enter. Jesus said, many will try to enter but will not be able to. Someday, the door to salvation will be closed forever. So we should make an effort.

    If you are not accepting my warning, I respect your beliefs. Follow what you want to follow. I’ll follow only the Lord Jesus and His word. Sometimes, the devil will trick you and play with your emotions, will say “Do not believe!” Sometimes, a way seems right to a man but the end of it leads to death. God will have mercy to those who have mercy. So be merciful and keep faith.

  4. Ephesians 6: The Whole Armor of God
    10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

  5. I’m catholic! My Mom is cancer survivor because she had faith that she prayed and prayed about her illness. She prayed and meditate on Rosary until that day she got healed. We pray to Mary as our intercessor so she can pray for us through his Son and to God. Amen. I don’t judge other religions. If we pray to one God alone and if we believe in Jesus, as our
    Saviour, our Lord, our God and confess and repent our sins, we have salvation, a gift from God. I have a personal relationship with God and also, I meditate on Rosaries (praying to God), cause Mary says that “God exist” that God wants his Children to come and return to Him before it is too late. This was a testimony from Medjugorge messages in Bosnia, where Mother of God appears. I have seen miracles when we pray to Holy Mary, God does restores our souls.

  6. Well presented Patrick!

    The difficulty for many Protestants I would imagine, is one of acceptance. If you have been raised in a family, worshipped with and agree with the tenants of their faith, your fully committed. Using your ability to reason, you accept as absolute truth, that which you have been taught. People of all religions do this as a common practice. In a very real sense, God comes to the devout of all religions with His Holy Spirit and souls are saved through that same spirit because the Holy Spirit is inseparable from the Father as is the Son, they comprise ONE GOD.

    It is said in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit subsists in it. That the Holy Spirit, as it did at Pentecost, breathes it’s life upon the faithful through the Sacraments. Every Baptism, every Confirmation, every reception of Christ in the Eucharist, every properly made Confession, every Marriage blessed by God and His Church, every Ordination, every time a person is anointed while facing potentially looming death, the Holy Spirit floods that person with His Presence, God’s Grace.

    Knowledgeable Catholics do not consider themselves loved by God above any human being and they trust that God will show His Mercy to all that profess His name and follow His commands.
    What well informed Catholics trust to be true is that the safest route to heaven, the most knowledgeable guide, the army with the greatest arsenal of weapons to fight and destroy evil,
    is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

    It’s not that people can’t get to heaven by using another guide or taking a somewhat different route or making that journey with fewer means of self protection; it’s that they believe their salvation can best be worked out in the safety and power of it’s mystical body, the Church, whose Head is Christ. Catholics believe and say, in it’s highest form of public worship, through the anointed and consecrated priests, that is through Christ and with Christ and in Christ that ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE IS OUR ALMIGHTY FATHER’S, FOREVER AND EVER. It is a profession of faith that unites all of the Catholic faithful with Christ as their High priest in perfect
    adoration of God the Father.

    The Catholic Church works with, in and through Christ to offer perfect praise to His Father, it offers PERFECT PRAISE because of Christ, and those who love, honor and obey Him.

    A sincere Catholic doesn’t love God any more than a sincere Protestant, and God doesn’t love one more than the other, a sincere Catholic does believe that Grace, the gift of God’s presence in our souls is more easily received through the sacramental life of the Church and from the perspective of one who loves God and wants to spend eternity in His glorious Presence, that is a good thing.

  7. Mquia says:
    January 29, 2012 at 12:41 am
    Old Testament reveals Promise, New Testament reveals fulfillment. End of Quote

    The Old Testament reveals to humanity that there is only one God.

    The New Testament reveals to humanity, the true and full nature of God. We do not know from the Old Testament that Jesus is the Son of God and the Word through which all things are created. In the Old Testament we are told that the way to God is through obeying His commands, His laws. In the New Testament we are told that the way to God is through His Son Who is the Truth and the Life and the Way.

    That sounds more like the completion of revelation, than it does promise and fulfillment.

    It is true that Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise but the fact that Jesus, the Word Incarnate actually entered into our humanity, became man, while remaining to be God, is the reason or purpose for the promise. Because Jesus is God, He stated, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. This was as far as God could go in revealing Himself short of the beatific vision, which no man can survive while living.

    The promise in the Old Testament was to the Jews, it was for them the Messiah was to come. In the New Testament the discover the Messiah is for all mankind. That was a rather dramatic change but it was not really a change, it was the completion of revelation.

    If you were a Jew in the first century and then were baptized a Christian, it was no longer necessary to be circumcised it was no longer a requirement for salvation. If you had been eating pork on Saturday as a Jew you had broken the law and sinned against God but if on Sunday, you ate Pork as a newly baptized Christian, you have not sinned, you are still right with the Lord.
    Dietary laws CHANGED. These things are most certainly in the Old Testament and they changed but only because Christ fully revealed what God wanted from His highest form of creation, obedience to His Son’s Words. That is why God the Father, at the transfiguration, stated, ” This is my Son of Whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM.”

    Jesus Himself stated that He hadn’t come to take away the law and He didn’t, He simply gave humanity the perfect understanding of the meaning and purpose for the law. Unnecessary parts or components of the law were eliminated but the heart of the law concerning, the purpose for it’s existence, Love, remained. Love God above all else and love your fellow man as Christ loved and continues to love and you will have obeyed all of the laws.

  8. Gerald, your second question can be answered in a similar fashion to the first. The Old Testament was dealing with people who literally had been practicing pagan rituals. They were
    worshipping statues and other man made images as if they were actually gods and had some sort of power over nature. God, through Moses, corrected that error by telling them that there is only one true God and He is that God and there is no image or likeness and there is nothing you can imagine that is actually Him.

    But again, that all changed with the birth of Christ. It was now possible to see the image of God in human form. He had a body and a face and even if the future renderings were not precise, they still represented Jesus the Christ, the second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. So the early Church’s artwork depicting our Lord was no sin. Just as it was not and is not now a sin to memorialize the crucifixion of our Lord by placing his likeness on wooden crosses.

    As far as statues of Mary and Joseph and other saints are concerned, Catholics do not worship these images, they use them to call to mind the holy lives they lived on earth with the hopes of emulating them for the glory and pleasure of God. While lifting their minds to these spiritual ideals, the faithful ask for the powerful intercessory prayer the Church teaches they can offer on our behalf. You certainly don’t have to believe this is possible or necessary but if it’s true, you are missing out on some pretty powerful spiritual aid. But you will most likely do as you were taught.

  9. Good questions Gerald!

    In your first question you take a passage from the Hebrew Scriptures i.e. the Old Testament and set it apart from the New Testament in which new commandments and new understandings are presented by Christ. It’s important to know the purpose, or maybe better stated, the meaning of the Old Testament. Everything revealed in the Old Testament pre figured and pointed towards the promised Messiah, the new and everlasting covenant in the Blood of the Pascal Lamb, Jesus the Christ. Whatever understanding existed before His entering into humanity, it was now fully revealed in the Person of Christ. Moses permitted under certain conditions, divorce. It was done, as Christ Himself stated, because of the hardness of the hearts of the people at that time. But Christ said that what God has joined together, let no man put asunder. Divorce was explicitly forbidden. On a different occasion, when questioned by a scribe, Christ was asked about the two greatest commandments and He answered the way the Jews would have known was correct but then He said that there is to be a new understanding of how you are to treat your neighbor, you are to treat them as I do. Which we know is unconditionally and even unto death.

    These are but a few examples of how we are to view the Old Testament. What had been partially revealed then was now fully revealed in Christ. God the Father only alluded to His Son in the Old Testament, especially through Isaiah but now through the Gospel writers, the Son was fully revealed and the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was fully revealed in the New Testament. If you really look closely at all the inter related passages regarding the triune nature of God, you come to the reality that by praying to any one of the three Persons, you are praying to them all. It has to be that way because there is only one God but that God has three natures. This is understood by the Catholic Church as an unknowable mystery that must be taken on faith but will be revealed fully upon our physical death and our soul coming before this God. This is sort of a long answer so a little later I will attempt to answer your second question.

  10. I am not sure if this is a catholic or protestant web site, I am just trying to get a question that has me wondering. This has to do with praying to anyone else that is not God.

    1. “You shall have no other gods before me” no where does this say except for my son. It says you will only pray to God, Not the father, the son and the holy ghost. It does not says to end you prayers with “In Jesus name we pray, Amen”.

    2. “You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” No where in this does it says build a giant cross or a giant cross with Jesus on it. It does not say build grandiose churches with statues of saints and the virgin Mary to pray or pay respects to. In fact he specifically says DO NOT DO THIS, For I am a jealous God.

    I just want to know how between the time of Moses and the righting of the books of the new testament, these fundamentals can completely change.

  11. 1 Corinthians 5:8
    Acts 1:10
    Galatians 1:8

    /praying

  12. Herein lies the danger of self interpretation, something the Apostles were all too familiar with.

    How is it that the Holy Spirit would permit such a erroneous understanding of divine revelation?

    Obviously He didn’t but this is the inherent danger in not having a teaching authority.

    I will repeat, there was no bible to misinterpret during the first two – three centuries and had there not been a teaching authority ( the Apostles ) Christianity would have splintered into all sorts of false understandings, of false doctrine. Which it turns out, is what happened after the great schism of the 16th century.

    If you really want to know what to believe regarding Sacred Scripture, pick up the books that tell about the early Church Fathers, the Bishops, and their brilliant theological renderings. Origen, Augustine, Ambrose, Cyprian, Cyril of Alexandria, Thomas Aquinas and many others. Read about liturgy in those beginning years. Learn how the earliest Christians prayed and their understanding of the Lord’s Supper. Arm yourselves with valuable knowledge. Go back to the many centuries before the reformation and learn who protected Christians from false teachings and who set down the doctrines given to them by our Lord while he taught them on earth. Try to get past the notion that anything that contradicts your understanding of scripture, must be and always is from satan. Study the early Church.

  13. jacqueline petrucci says:
    “Jesus today has long been in the heavenly sanctuary deciding who are
    the chosen and what they have done. He entered there in 1844 by
    bible prophecy,”

    What the Heck are you talking about?

    John says:
    Christ IS THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME THROUGH AND WITH HIM WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY INTO HEAVEN, but that is not to say that Mary, his mother
    is not permitted to lead souls to her son.

    John- The only spiritual being who leads souls to Christ is God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit. Are you equating Mary with the 3rd person of the trinity?

    Disclaimer: I will never be rude or hateful to a Catholic, my in-laws are Catholic and I mean no hatred, only love.

    I agree with Anthony and will state it plainly: The Catholic’s worship of Mary/praying to Mary or saints is BLASPHEMY. We are to pray to none but the father, nor call no man on Earth our father (priests).
    God specifically points these things out for a reason. You will be absolutely without excuse on the day of judgement. It is plain as black and white, He foresaw this error and addressed in in His word yet you all continue to disobey. I am not God and cannot judge but If I were Him I would feel angry that you are giving my glory to another (God expresses this sentiment over and over in the Bible).

    Apologetics are great, but without the supernatural work of the Spirit in opening minds, eyes and hearts, It is to none avail.

    I pray God will have mercy on all of us, that we would not be lead astray and that He would reveal His truth to His sheep.

  14. jfyi when it says mary was conceived without sinning it means that she was pregnant without sinning, she has conceived without sinning…because she was a an unwed virgin. Context make its more clear that is what is meant by the verse, not that she was perfect, as the child, Jesus Christ, she was pregnant with is.

  15. Satan loves to be worshipped. When they worship Mary, they’re worshiping Satan without knowing it. Sunday is not a worship day for God, Sunday is a day of Satan. We read that God commanded us to worship Him only in Sabbath day but why it was moved to Sun? Because of Satan great idea working through a false prophet or a religious leader, and the deceiver. Now if we arent aware of this and keep on obeying the law of a man that we didn’t realize a false prophet, that is the time we are marked by the beast. God is not pointing His finger to an individual sin but He is pointing to some churches and that is where His wrath started. We can understand it in Revelation why God is angry and still people did not repent until the judgement day. We heard that we shouldn’t pray or bow to anything that are made up of woods, that is consider honoring them. In revelation, there are images of beast and it’s clear that this beast is already existing. The antichrist existed already who taught us peace in the name of God to deceive many. It’s just a summ.. Now we should stop praying or worshipping to any dead saints, that is the idea of Satan. Let’s pray directly to God.
    It’s not my own idea, it’s from a pastor who taught us and from some people’s prophesy and visions.
    Acts 2:17 In the last days, God says, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” This are the signs and warnings that the last day is coming. Before it’s too late, I hope many of God’s children will find the truth. God bless us all.

  16. Mark 7:6-9 says, “Jesus answered them, “How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote: ’These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!’ “You put aside God’s command and obey human teachings.” And Jesus continued, “You have a clever way of rejecting God’s law in order to uphold your own teaching.”

  17. “You will recall that Jesus gave the power to loose and bind sins, to the Apostles.”

    You may also recall 1 John 1:8-10:

    “8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

    The problem is, it’s not Mary that says, “I am without sin” – she actually claims that she was in need of a “savior”, it’s the Catholic church that says such a thing. So it’s not MARY that’s calling God a liar, but rather it is the Catholic church that is implying that He is. Because if you claim that someone is “without sin”, the “TRUTH is not IN you.”

    “Mary was saved because she was part of the human race, not because she sinned.”

    When a lie is created, a lie has to be covered. This is why we use the bible for “reproof” and “correction.” It’s for reasons such as THIS that 1 John 1:8-10 exists.

    You say, “So the short answer is that God the Father chose Mary among all women of all time to participate in the incarnation of the Word.”

    True, but this is not an “answer” to my question of whether or not she is a sinner. This is simply a correct statement.

    You say, “and neither one of us knows why He would do what he did”

    He didn’t do what you claim He did. It’s written, so I do know.

    You say, “we do know that God’s ways are so far above our understanding that it will always remain a mystery and hence the need to be taken on faith.”

    No one denied God’s ways are superior to man’s ways, it’s the placing of a mere MAN on LEVEL with a God SO HIGH in standards so as to be SPOTLESS that you are being called out on. HE is “spotless” and “without sin”, and you claim “SO IS MAN.”

    “You will continue to believe what you have been taught and so will I”

    This is the problem. My mother is a Catholic, so it’s God I’m listening to, not what I’ve been taught. You on the other hand won’t sway from what has been ingrained in your heart and mind since you were a child, because you are content with your position. Instead of letting the Holy Spirit guide you, you let man guide you. This is why Muslims are Muslims and Jews are Jews, because if they would listen to GOD, instead of what they have been TAUGHT, then they also would know Jesus and they also would declare that it is only GOD who is sinless.

    The Truth is right in front of your face and you keep denying it over and over again. You keep making God out to be a liar over and over again You’ll dig and dig to try to cover up these lies I’d bet deep down you don’t even believe are true. It’s sad enough that you don’t see the Light, but the bigger problem is that the false doctrine you speak will eventually lead some other soul down a path of thinking Mary is their guide into salvation.

    You say, “the one comforting statement from the Gospels is that our Lord told His Apostles that those who aren’t against us are for us and since we both proclaim Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, it would appear we are allies, even if we don’t necessarily have the same battle plan.”

    I hate to be harsh here, but your plan is what will lead many into damnation. You don’t strike me as someone arguing JUST to argue, so if you heart is sincere, I pray that the Lord open your eyes to see the Truth.

    For all others, to those reading from here on in, if you have not yet made up your mind, I know it is a long read, but please go over everything that has been written on both pages and then take it from there. It would be better to do that then to come out guns blazing, as I’m sure that at least some of what you’d like to ask has been discussed already. I believe that God’s true children will be drawn to that which is True – they may be deceived for a while, but they will eventually find their way home. May the Lord bless His children and open their eyes to the Truth. Amen.

  18. Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
    2 Peter 2:2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

    Jesus said:
    Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    I sense that some of Paul’s teachings are contadict to the LORD Jesus’.
    Jesus said to love our enemy but Paul said to love our neigbors and hate our enemy. I didn’t hear Paul said that but many people said he did and they compared Jesus and Paul’s teachings.
    I’m in Christ. 🙂 Do not hate yourselves. Deliver your words in love and respectful way.

  19. Anthony states:

    If any person, church, priest, man or woman speaks things that go against the the bible, and claim that they are protected by God against “the gates of hell” when doing so, then there is something very, very wrong. Somewhere down the line, within the past 2,000 years, something went horribly astray. Whether it was a single man or a full-on religious group splitting from the original apostolic church, creating their own church and using their OWN interpretation of scripture, all the while claiming they are still an apostolic church (when they were NOT), I can’t speak on. I will say this, though: Never will I accept any teaching that is in opposition to the bible. The Catholic religion is full of man-mad traditions that are clearly in opposition to what the bible teaches, and thus why they’re teachings should always be questioned, if not fully dismissed as being Truth. End of quote.

    And so it is. You will leave this life believing what you trust is the Truth and so will I. Nothing short of dying and being in the Full Presence of God will allow either one of us to know how well we chose our path.

    I’m not trying to convert anyone here but I think it’s worthwhile to challenge statements about the Catholic faith I know to be untrue. You will continue to believe what you have been taught and so will I and the one comforting statement from the Gospels is that our Lord told His Apostles that those who aren’t against us are for us and since we both proclaim Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, it would appear we are allies, even if we don’t necessarily have the same battle plan.

  20. Anthony says:
    January 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm
    Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?

    According to the teachings of the catholic Church, Mary, while she was conceived without the stain of original sin, was free to accept or reject God’s offer to be the mother of the Messiah.
    Mary was saved because she was part of the human race, not because she sinned. God made it POSSIBLE for all mankind to be reconciled to the Father and therefor enter into His Kingdom unless they were to die in the sins they committed after baptism and remained on their souls at death because they chose not to repent and seek forgiveness. You will recall that Jesus gave the power to loose and bind sins, to the Apostles.

    So the short answer is that God the Father chose Mary among all women of all time to participate in the incarnation of the Word. Only God knows if she needed saving because it was His decision to bring our Lord into the world through a spotless virgin; but because she was part of the human race, she benefitted by our Lord’s life, death and resurrection. If God the father created her without sin, there would be no need to save her and neither one of us knows why He would do what he did but then again, we do know that God’s ways are so far above our understanding that it will always remain a mystery and hence the need to be taken on faith.

  21. Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?

  22. “Christ did give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against his and the Apostles power and authority because it is from Christ Himself.”

    I don’t know the “hows” or the “whys” behind what is happening, neither do you, but what I do know, is that it’s happening. And what is happening is this: Scripture is being used to get people to accept teachings that are in opposition to scripture. How you can be blinded to this fact, I don’t know, but you are one of MANY.

    If the bible says, “don’t kill”, and you say, “it is our belief that we can kill”, why would someone be wrong in telling you that killing is wrong? You’d go on to say, “just because it isn’t written in the bible that we CAN kill, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.” And then when they say to you, “yes, saying you ‘CAN kill’ isn’t in the bible, but saying you ‘CAN’T kill’ –IS– in the bible”, you say, “well Jesus protected our church from the gates of hell, so what killing someone MUST be okay to do in God’s eyes.” So be it.

    You say, “So the connection is that the Catholic Church, through it’s Apostolic Tradition, the Chair of Peter and Sacred Scripture which confirms the first two, is the Church founded by Christ, that will always possess the power and authority to teach and profess the Truth of Christ. It’s doctrines are from the Holy Spirit and confirmed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in obedience to God the Father.”

    If any person, church, priest, man or woman speaks things that go against the the bible, and claim that they are protected by God against “the gates of hell” when doing so, then there is something very, very wrong. Somewhere down the line, within the past 2,000 years, something went horribly astray. Whether it was a single man or a full-on religious group splitting from the original apostolic church, creating their own church and using their OWN interpretation of scripture, all the while claiming they are still an apostolic church (when they were NOT), I can’t speak on. I will say this, though: Never will I accept any teaching that is in opposition to the bible. The Catholic religion is full of man-mad traditions that are clearly in opposition to what the bible teaches, and thus why they’re teachings should always be questioned, if not fully dismissed as being Truth.

    You say, “Please try to grasp this fact, before the Christian Bible came into being, there was a Church, founded by Christ, which was given the authority to teach and preach, baptize, forgive sins or bind them and the power and authority to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.”

    John, it would be wise of you not to instruct others to try to “grasp” certain things. For 1.) because you have failed to “grasp” much of what has been said and 2.) even what you say above STILL has nothing to do with what we’re specifically speaking about. So please, say what you have to say, make your point, and leave it at that.

    p.s. Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?

  23. Anna says:
    January 17, 2012 at 3:53 pm
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3 : 16 – 17 KJV.

    Timothy was a disciple of Paul’s and with the authority of Paul, a bishop / apostle, he was permitted to teach his listeners this truth, but as we are well aware, this was done with an authority other than the bible, since it didn’t exist at the time Timothy was preaching and teaching. The bible didn’t give him the authority, Paul did because Paul was an Apostle chosen by Christ himself to build up His Church, which was was founded upon the Apostles and Peter.

    Please try to grasp this fact, before the Christian Bible came into being, there was a Church, founded by Christ, which was given the authority to teach and preach, baptize, forgive sins or bind them and the power and authority to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.

  24. Question from Anthony:

    What does any of what you’ve written above have to do with what we’re speaking about? I can see absoluetly no connection. End of question.

    The connection is this, and while it is subtle, it never the less exists;

    You can’t pick and choose the words of scripture to suit your purpose and ignore those that are in contradiction to your practices of faith and worship.

    John 6 is a command that Protestants have no ability to put into practice because they lack the priestly authority to change bread and wine into the Body & Blood of Christ and that is a huge issue. Apostolic authority and succession is a huge issue because Christ made it one when he gave them the power and authority to loose and bind sin. In addition, as you have alluded to, Christ did give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against his and the Apostles power and authority because it is from Christ Himself.

    So the connection is that the Catholic Church, through it’s Apostolic Tradition, the Chair of Peter and Sacred Scripture which confirms the first two, is the Church founded by Christ, that will always possess the power and authority to teach and profess the Truth of Christ. It’s doctrines are from the Holy Spirit and confirmed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in obedience to God the Father.

  25. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3 : 16 – 17 KJV.

    Does this scripture need interpretation?
    Anything that is not inline with the scripture (which is God’s word) is from the devil.
    Since we are mentioning book of John:

    John 14:6, 13-14 KJV

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    So why go through Mary to pray for them while its clearly stated ask in thy name (Jesus Christ) and it will be done? Why the complications??

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