Should We Pray to Dead Saints?
ob,
In reference to your friend wanting to pray to a “dead saint” – there are verses in the Bible that say that we are not to try and communicate with the dead. The “dead” are those humans who have already died and passed over to the other side – whether it be to heaven or to hell.
I believe God is telling us with the word “communicate” that we are not to even try and pray to them. The reason is obvious. They are in heaven. They are not omnipresent like God is. And even if someone should try and pray to them – there is no way that person would even hear your prayers to begin with unless God would allow it or would transmit the prayer to them.
Even though that dead saint is up in heaven – this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God’s full, supernatural power to answer your prayer in the first place – and who probably will not even hear or pick up your prayer anyway, since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.
When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament – but He did not!
The reason for this is because God the Father is a jealous God. He, and He alone, is our one and only true God and Father. He, and He alone, is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
Jesus’ death on the cross has now opened up the gates to heaven. The Bible tells us that we can now boldly approach the throne of God for prayer and intimate communication anytime we want. If you will notice, it says to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!
I personally believe that when some people start praying to dead saints instead of going direct to God the Father, I think they may actually be hurting God’s feelings.
Here God is, sitting up in heaven, only wanting to help us in this life – and then all of a sudden He sees one of His own going direct to a dead saint who has no supernatural power on his own to answer any part of their specific prayer request. However, I know He knows that many of His people do it out of ignorance because they really do not know what the Bible says about all of this, and they do not understand how the big picture is all set up.
Bob, here are some specific Scripture verses telling us that we are not to attempt to commune with the dead. The clue is in the word “medium” or “spiritist.” A medium is one who attempts to call up the dead in order for that person to be able to communicate with that dead person. This is what you call a basic seance.
There are several well know mediums right now who are all over the place on TV actually doing séances for people to try and reach their dead loved ones. If God the Father is condemning this kind of activity as you will see in the following verses – then I also believe that you can extrapolate on this and assume that God does not want you trying to communicate direct with the dead even on your own.
If God does not want a medium trying to contact the dead for you – then I also believe it is safe to assume that God does not want you trying to contact the dead through any kind of prayer effort on your own. When you start trying to pray to a dead saint, you are attempting to try and communicate directly with the one you are praying to.
Bottom line:
- God the Father is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
- God has it set up through His Son’s death on the cross that we are to approach His throne, and His throne alone, with any of our specific prayer requests. He does not want us going to anyone else, either in heaven above or on this earth.
We can ask others down here to pray for us and with us, to pray in agreement with us, but we are not to pray direct to any human down here for them to actually answer any of our specific prayers.
So if it would be ridiculous for us to pray to someone else down here on this earth to actually answer any of our specific prayers, then it only stands to reason that it would be just as ridiculous to pray direct to a dead saint up in heaven to answer any of our specific prayers.
The other question some people have on this is if they can pray and ask a dead saint to pray direct to God for them as an actual intercessor. Again, even doing this is still an attempt to try and communicate with this dead saint, and as such, I do not believe God wants us doing this. There are enough people down here on this earth that we can ask to pray for us and with us without having to go direct to dead saints who are living up in heaven.
The Scripture Verses
Here are 4 very good verses specifically telling us that we are not to have anything to do with “mediums” or the “calling up of the dead.”
- “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)
- “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
- “And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
- “So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
Notice the words “calls up the dead,” and the statement that God makes that this practice is an abomination in His eyes! When you are attempting to call up the dead, you are attempting to try and directly communicate with them.
Notice that God uses the word “prostitute” as an analogy. You are prostituting yourself against God when you start seeking supernatural help or guidance from any one else but Him!
King Saul got into big trouble with God when he asked a witch to call up the prophet Samuel who had already died. He literally incurred the wrath of God when he did this, and this eventually led to his downfall and early death.
Notice the verse says that the reason Saul was trying to call up Samuel was for guidance. Instead of going direct to God the Father for the guidance that he was needing, he tries to contact one of God’s dead saints. Samuel was a great man and a great prophet of God, but God was wanting Saul to come directly to Him for any guidance that he was needing, not to a dead saint!
This story is a perfect example showing that we are to go directly to God the Father if we need any help with anything, not to any dead saints who are living up in heaven.
Bob – also notice the very intense language that God is using when He is warning us not to attempt to try and communicate with the dead.
He is telling us that it is an “abomination” in His eyes, and that He will set His face against us if we try and do it. He also says that this kind of activity “defiles” us in His eyes. I do not think God could give us any more of a stricter warning on this issue than by the way that He has worded all of the above Scripture verses.
Even though some people are not consulting mediums when they are trying to pray to dead saints, I believe they are still trying to communicate directly with them through their direct prayer efforts and they are thus violating a basic direct commandment from the Lord on this issue.
I do not know if this will help your friend or if she will agree with any part of this, but those are my thoughts on this issue and what I feel God is trying to tell us through His Word on this subject.
Many people are engaging in séances these days, as it is a big part of the New Age Movement. Trying to do any part of this could be major door openers to the dark side. Demons can definitely come in on some of these people who try and play this game. Many times, the medium is literally taken over by a demonic spirit masquerading as a dear, departed, loved one, and a demon is literally speaking through the medium’s vocal cords imitating the departed love one.
If you have any more questions on this topic, let me know and I will do the best I can to answer your specific questions.
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Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Biblical belief:
Acts 16:30-31″
“30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, WHAT must I do to be SAVED?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Never, ever, ever a mention of Mary. Ever! Expect by Catholics. E
Catholic belief:
“None, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]
What you have quoted is in no way a doctrine of the Catholic Church and no Catholic is required in even the smallest way to accept these words as divinely revealed, in order that one may achieve eternal salvation. It may in fact have some merit and it may in fact turn out to be a spiritual reality that is in and of itself a mystery, but Protestants should know what the term infallible means when attached to the teachings of a Pope. What is meant is that when it comes to matters of faith ( that which you must believe to work out your salvation, as supported by the testimony of the Apostles who wrote the New Testament ) and morals, the way Christ instructed, first His Apostles and then all Christians, to live out their human existence, that Pope and those Apostles who agree on such a teaching are divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that came upon them at Pentecost, and therefore the teaching is without error, because of the Holy Spirit. Once a Pope speaks about any matter that doesn’t involve faith and morals, he is on his own and his words are not binding in any way. But you should also know that the Pope doesn’t work in a vacuum or on his own, even and especially in matters of doctrine, he works with the See of bishops, the successors to the Apostles.
John, YOU, yourself, stated SEVERAL times that your salvation is “through Mary.” Are you really going to make me go to the first page and copy & paste each and every time you said it? C’mon! Quit back peddling.
John, YOU, yourself, stated SEVERAL times that your salvation is “through Mary.” Are you really going to make me go to the first page and copy & paste each and every time you said it? C’mon! Quit back peddling.
Please do just that because I have never believed that salvation comes from anything other than our Lord Jesus Christ.
I’m interested to review the way I stated things in previous posts.
Thank you
John, these are your quotes:
“the role Mary plays in salvation history.”
“There are three very important Catholic teachings that are a tremendous benefit to souls working out their salvation; The role Mary plays in salvation history as the protectress of the believers”
Who knows what else you posted, and how many times, but I’m not going through ever single statement you made, as your belief is quite obvious.
You’re going to say that she simply plays a “role”, but the picture the Catholic church paints is that of an extremely important role. It is THROUGH her (no catholic would deny this, but all of a sudden you do?) that you GET to Jesus. I will find credible sources that state such is the case and will post them when I do.
In the meantime, perhaps you can touch on my last post on the first page? There were a few important questions I’d like you to answer for me.
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 1:22 pm
“the Apostolic Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin.”
THIS is what we’re debating. This is what contradicts what the bible teaches. I don’t know how, why, or when it happened, but it is written that only GOD is without sin. Mary called God her SAVIOR? Tell me: WHAT exactly did she need God to save her from? Will you answer this question for me? Of course not.
Also, you go on to say, “you begin to appreciate the real unlikelihood that the Holy Spirit would have overshadowed and our Lord would have entered the womb of a woman with original sin or any sin, great or small.”
So then by YOUR logic, NO MAN ON EARTH can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because we are all sinners? By your logic, one must be a NON SINNER to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
That’s not what I said or meant, because I was not speaking about any man’s ability to have the Holy Spirit dwell in him or her, I was referring only to the Son Of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity and the logical thought the He who was without sin would not have been born into sin! Hope that is more clear.
You say, “If Catholics were forced to point to one or more verses in the Bible to substantiate these professions, they couldn’t, but they aren’t forced to limit their divinely revealed beliefs to only Sacred Scripture because they have the testimony of the Apostles, Peter, and their successors, to draw from.”
John, what you fail to understand over and over again is this. Our disagreement is NOT (please understand this) because what you say is NOT in the bible, it’s because what you claim is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to that which is stated in the bible. Do you get that? It would be one thing if NO WHERE in the bible was it written that only ONE is good and without sin, then you could say, “Mary is without sin” and no one could open their mouths, because we simply wouldn’t know, but that is NOT THE CASE, we DO know, it’s written!
Here is what I get, if it’s not in the Bible, God can’t do it. If He decided that for His own purpose and pleasure, he wanted the Blessed Mother to speak to his people and warn them of present dangers and the protection God has now chosen to offer His people, He can’t because He made the mistake of not including it in the Bible. Even though there is nothing in the Bible that says with absolute certainty that all revelation for all time is contained in His Sacred Words.
You say, “We can go back and forth with the ” where in the Bible does it say that”
Again, try to follow what we are NOT saying that. Please.
You say, “In finishing, we don’t worship Mary but we do seek her prayers and intercession and through her Immaculate Heart”
Again, you say one thing, but do another.
2 Corinthians 11:3, 4:
“3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
This is a very clever means to ending such a discussion. If it’s not in the Bible, it’s satanic, end of discussion. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that it doesn’t play that game because it knows the Truth and is not afraid to have open discussions about the possibility of various means of
modern revelation. It is you who continue to ignore the fact that the Bible came AFTER the Apostles and Peter and the beginning centuries of Christianity. And it is you who cherry picks the verses that support your position and demand that I address them but make no effort to address those versus in chapter 6 of John or the verses in which our Lord gave authority to the Apostles od which jesus made Peter their leader and therefore the leader of the Church He established.
“In Christ.” Like I said above, Satan is a deceiver, but what he has mastered, is the art of subtlety. What you are doing is attempting to sway attention from obvious worship status that you’ve placed on Mary. Whether intentional or not, only God knows.
Not sure why you are so adamant about claiming I do something which I do not or that other Catholics are supposed to do, but for the record, I DO NOT WORSHIP MARY, I WORSHIP GOD THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. See, that wasn’t so hard and it’s the truth. I have a devotion to Mary, as I trust God would prefer I do and I trust that she will pray for me to her Son and cover me with a mantle of protection against evil and if you equate that with worship, so be it.
“NONE obtains salvation except through”…MARY? Really? What more needs to be said? This is the core of Catholic belief. No one has come out and directly stated that, “MARY IS GOD”, but how much more obvious can it be that you think of her as such?
No, Mary is not the “core” of Catholic belief and you do not need to take my word for it, in fact, I really wish you and others similar to you would pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read what we REALLY BELIEVE and WHY WE BELIEVE IT. But that probably can’t happen because if it contradicts your beliefs it must be the work of satan.
How many times have people been saved SIMPLY (yes, SIMPLY) by believing in JESUS, our SAVIOR? How many times? Many were saved THEN by believing ONLY in Jesus and MANY will be saved TODAY by believing ONLY in Jesus. God doesn’t change, men change. Which is why Catholics believe that our salvation is —strictly— through Mary? And that (get this) “NONE” receives salvation but through HER.
Again, you have been given some terribly wrong information. And again, the truth about what Catholics believe is in the Catechism and you will discover just how wrong the notion is that Mary is in any way God or our means of salvation. Another proof of what I’m saying is the Mass, the highest and most perfect form of public worship contained in the Catholic Church. If you are not afraid of becoming possessed by the devil, sit in on a Mass and listen to the words of the prayers and then report back on the importance placed on Mary in this divine worship as compared to our Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and above all, God the Father. No one who comes away from a Mass would become confused about Who is worshipped and why.
Amazing!
Newer Comments »
You say, “That’s not what I said or meant, because I was not speaking about any man’s ability to have the Holy Spirit dwell in him or her, I was referring only to the Son Of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity and the logical thought the He who was without sin would not have been born into sin! Hope that is more clear.”
It’s not clear, no. How theologians break it down, and whether original sin is from man, and thus why Jesus being born only of a woman is why he was not born “into” sin is something I do not know nor is it any of my concern. Regardless of the science behind how it is explained, what I, and many others, will not accept is this: Any man besides God being without sin. I don’t care why you would give her attributes that only God has, the bottom line is that they are HIS very specific attributes, and not man’s. To say anyone besides God is without sin is man-made doctrine. Doctrine that (this is what’s important here) goes AGAINST scripture.
“Here is what I get, if it’s not in the Bible, God can’t do it.”
You see, you DON’T get it. This is what I am saying: If God says ONE, and you say TWO, who is right? God says only ONE is without sin, and you say TWO are without sin: God and Mary. Who is right? God or man? You keep going to back to things that are not in the bible, and I’m trying hard to focus your attention on that which is actually IN the bible.
“If He decided that for His own purpose and pleasure, he wanted the Blessed Mother to speak to his people and warn them of present dangers and the protection God has now chosen to offer His people”
I don’t know where these visions come from, but you sway from the point. What we’re discussing is whether or not Mary is without sin. The bible says ALL fall short of the glory of God, and you say, “…ALL but ONE.” You are going AGAINST what GOD said.
“This is a very clever means to ending such a discussion. If it’s not in the Bible, it’s satanic, end of discussion.”
I can’t keep doing this over and over again – you’re going to have to figure out what I’m saying here, John.
In John 21:25, it states:
“25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”
So obviously JUST because it’s not IN the bible, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or an incorrect teaching. But if something actually IS in the bible, and you go —against— such a teaching, then THIS is what you need to focus on. This is what I’m telling you the Catholic church (yourself, included) is doing.
“It is you who continue to ignore the fact that the Bible came AFTER”
It doesn’t matter WHEN the bible “came” to be, it points to a Truth that always WAS, IS, and always WILL BE. So when I use that time-LESS Truth to shine a light on that which is not true, you claim what I say is false? If so, you claim what God says is false, as what I speak are not MY words, but God’s.
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 1:57 pm
John, these are your quotes:
“the role Mary plays in salvation history.”
“There are three very important Catholic teachings that are a tremendous benefit to souls working out their salvation; The role Mary plays in salvation history as the protectress of the believers”
Who knows what else you posted, and how many times, but I’m not going through ever single statement you made, as your belief is quite obvious.
You’re going to say that she simply plays a “role”, but the picture the Catholic church paints is that of an extremely important role. It is THROUGH her (no catholic would deny this, but all of a sudden you do?) that you GET to Jesus. I will find credible sources that state such is the case and will post them when I do.
In the meantime, perhaps you can touch on my last post on the first page? There were a few important questions I’d like you to answer for me. END OF QUOTE
Anthony,
Salvation history is ongoing and will continue until the end of time. Whether you choose to believe this or not, we are all working out our own salvation and assisting others in theirs. Just because our Lord made it possible to enter into heaven does not mean that we are not required to follow his instructions on how to live Holy lives, starting with the two greatest commandments and the beatitudes. Salvation was made POSSIBLE but requires obedience to the commands of God. Otherwise, what would have been the purpose of all the parables about being ready at all times for the coming of the Lord, or the admonition to use your talents to their fullest or the reality that if you do not feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, visit the such and imprisoned, you will have not done it to our Lord and He will tell you to leave His sight for He does not know you. That my friend in Christ is working out your salvation in cooperation and obedience to Jesus, our Lord.
So rather than saying Mary is our salvation, I am saying that since she did perfectly the will of God as the mother of Christ, she, like us, does have a roll in salvation history and based on the appearances she has made throughout the world, it would appear that her role is much larger than you are willing to accept. The messages all say that God has given her the high honor of being able to cast her mantle of protection against evil, over any and all who desire her aid. That is not to say that those who don’t are damned but rather she provides a path possessing less spiritual danger.
Christ IS THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME THROUGH AND WITH HIM WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY INTO HEAVEN, but that is not to say that Mary, his mother
is not permitted to lead souls to her son.
Hope that helps to clarify the role Mary plays in the salvation history as it continues to unfold versus the definitive plan of God the Father, which required that His Son would be the paschal lamb that restored the relationship between Himself and His creation after it was severed, due to the sins of our first parents. The relationship was repaired by the Blood of the lamb but must be nurtured and made Holy by our obedience to His commands.
Anthony says:
So obviously JUST because it’s not IN the bible, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or an incorrect teaching. But if something actually IS in the bible, and you go —against— such a teaching, then THIS is what you need to focus on. This is what I’m telling you the Catholic church (yourself, included) is doing. End of Quote
Fair enough, let’s focus on chapter 6 of John’s Gospel
Anthony states:
It doesn’t matter WHEN the bible “came” to be, it points to a Truth that always WAS, IS, and always WILL BE. So when I use that time-LESS Truth to shine a light on that which is not true, you claim what I say is false? If so, you claim what God says is false, as what I speak are not MY words, but God’s. End of quote
Ok, what does God have to say about His Apostles and Peter, both in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles?
Great. Now we’re on the same page.
As for John 6, the Gospels and Acts, let’s not start with the ambiguity: what is your point?
Anthony states:
It doesn’t matter WHEN the bible “came” to be, it points to a Truth that always WAS, IS, and always WILL BE. So when I use that time-LESS Truth to shine a light on that which is not true, you claim what I say is false? If so, you claim what God says is false, as what I speak are not MY words, but God’s. End of quote
It may not matter to you but I’ll bet it meant a great deal to the Christians of the first and second and possibly even third centuries. The only way they would have known about Jesus and His teachings would have been through the spoken and written words of the Apostles, their disciples and their successors. The Apostles lived with Christ, learned from Him and baptized in His name and were the nucleus of what was to be Christianity. Their teachings which would have been predominantly verbal at first and later were put to writing, was the means for discovering the truth about God, His Son and the Holy Spirit. So I disagree vehemently that it doesn’t matter when the Bible was written when thought of in the context that it is the sole authority in matters of faith and morals.
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Great. Now we’re on the same page.
As for John 6, the Gospels and Acts, let’s not start with the ambiguity: what is your point?
Assuming you are serious, my point is that you refer to the middle sentence of the three you wrote and tell me how the Protestant understanding of the command that only those who ” eat His flesh and drink His blood” have life in them versus the Catholic teaching and practice of the real Presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ after the priest prays the prayers of consecration over the bread and wine, as our Lord did at the Last Supper, when he instructed them to do this in memory of Him. In other words, why is the Catholic Church wrong to take these words from scripture literally and the Protestant Church correct to explain these words away as not possible?
You say, “It may not matter to you but I’ll bet it meant a great deal to the Christians of the first and second and possibly even third centuries.”
“It?” It’s not the BIBLE that I say doesn’t matter, it’s WHEN it was written that doesn’t matter. Why would WHEN it was written matter to anyone? It wouldn’t. The only thing that would matter is that it was WRITTEN.
Not to mention the ONLY reason I brought it up was because you keep trying to dismiss what the bible says over and over and over again due to the fact that at “ONE POINT IN TIME, it had not yet been written.” That which was written AFTER, was due to what was believed BEFORE. What was believed BEFORE, was this: That there is only ONE without sin. What is being taught TODAY, is that such a teaching is untrue.
So why in the world, in your mind, you would think when it was written would matter, is far, far beyond me. Having said that, please don’t twist my words. You have misunderstood much of what I’ve said, and this you have misunderstood also.
You say, “and tell me how the Protestant understanding of the command that only those who ” eat His flesh and drink His blood” have life in them versus the Catholic teaching and practice of the real Presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ after the priest prays the prayers of consecration over the bread and wine, as our Lord did at the Last Supper, when he instructed them to do this in memory of Him. In other words, why is the Catholic Church wrong to take these words from scripture literally and the Protestant Church correct to explain these words away as not possible?”
What does any of what you’ve written above have to do with what we’re speaking about? I can see absoluetly no connection.
Above, you said that I, “make no effort to address those versus in chapter 6 of John or the verses in which our Lord gave authority to the Apostles od which jesus made Peter their leader and therefore the leader of the Church He established.”
Yea’, and? Who is denying that the church was built on the rock that was named Peter? I haven’t. I’m denying current claims. How such claims came to be, I do not know and have never claimed to know. What I do know is this: such claims, whenever or wherever they originated, are in opposition to that which is written in the bible. Perhaps God seeing such a thing would take place, however it did, whenever it did, was the reason His words were placed on paper.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3 : 16 – 17 KJV.
Does this scripture need interpretation?
Anything that is not inline with the scripture (which is God’s word) is from the devil.
Since we are mentioning book of John:
John 14:6, 13-14 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
So why go through Mary to pray for them while its clearly stated ask in thy name (Jesus Christ) and it will be done? Why the complications??
Question from Anthony:
What does any of what you’ve written above have to do with what we’re speaking about? I can see absoluetly no connection. End of question.
The connection is this, and while it is subtle, it never the less exists;
You can’t pick and choose the words of scripture to suit your purpose and ignore those that are in contradiction to your practices of faith and worship.
John 6 is a command that Protestants have no ability to put into practice because they lack the priestly authority to change bread and wine into the Body & Blood of Christ and that is a huge issue. Apostolic authority and succession is a huge issue because Christ made it one when he gave them the power and authority to loose and bind sin. In addition, as you have alluded to, Christ did give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against his and the Apostles power and authority because it is from Christ Himself.
So the connection is that the Catholic Church, through it’s Apostolic Tradition, the Chair of Peter and Sacred Scripture which confirms the first two, is the Church founded by Christ, that will always possess the power and authority to teach and profess the Truth of Christ. It’s doctrines are from the Holy Spirit and confirmed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in obedience to God the Father.
Anna says:
January 17, 2012 at 3:53 pm
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3 : 16 – 17 KJV.
Timothy was a disciple of Paul’s and with the authority of Paul, a bishop / apostle, he was permitted to teach his listeners this truth, but as we are well aware, this was done with an authority other than the bible, since it didn’t exist at the time Timothy was preaching and teaching. The bible didn’t give him the authority, Paul did because Paul was an Apostle chosen by Christ himself to build up His Church, which was was founded upon the Apostles and Peter.
Please try to grasp this fact, before the Christian Bible came into being, there was a Church, founded by Christ, which was given the authority to teach and preach, baptize, forgive sins or bind them and the power and authority to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.
“Christ did give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against his and the Apostles power and authority because it is from Christ Himself.”
I don’t know the “hows” or the “whys” behind what is happening, neither do you, but what I do know, is that it’s happening. And what is happening is this: Scripture is being used to get people to accept teachings that are in opposition to scripture. How you can be blinded to this fact, I don’t know, but you are one of MANY.
If the bible says, “don’t kill”, and you say, “it is our belief that we can kill”, why would someone be wrong in telling you that killing is wrong? You’d go on to say, “just because it isn’t written in the bible that we CAN kill, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.” And then when they say to you, “yes, saying you ‘CAN kill’ isn’t in the bible, but saying you ‘CAN’T kill’ –IS– in the bible”, you say, “well Jesus protected our church from the gates of hell, so what killing someone MUST be okay to do in God’s eyes.” So be it.
You say, “So the connection is that the Catholic Church, through it’s Apostolic Tradition, the Chair of Peter and Sacred Scripture which confirms the first two, is the Church founded by Christ, that will always possess the power and authority to teach and profess the Truth of Christ. It’s doctrines are from the Holy Spirit and confirmed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in obedience to God the Father.”
If any person, church, priest, man or woman speaks things that go against the the bible, and claim that they are protected by God against “the gates of hell” when doing so, then there is something very, very wrong. Somewhere down the line, within the past 2,000 years, something went horribly astray. Whether it was a single man or a full-on religious group splitting from the original apostolic church, creating their own church and using their OWN interpretation of scripture, all the while claiming they are still an apostolic church (when they were NOT), I can’t speak on. I will say this, though: Never will I accept any teaching that is in opposition to the bible. The Catholic religion is full of man-mad traditions that are clearly in opposition to what the bible teaches, and thus why they’re teachings should always be questioned, if not fully dismissed as being Truth.
You say, “Please try to grasp this fact, before the Christian Bible came into being, there was a Church, founded by Christ, which was given the authority to teach and preach, baptize, forgive sins or bind them and the power and authority to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.”
John, it would be wise of you not to instruct others to try to “grasp” certain things. For 1.) because you have failed to “grasp” much of what has been said and 2.) even what you say above STILL has nothing to do with what we’re specifically speaking about. So please, say what you have to say, make your point, and leave it at that.
p.s. Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?
Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?
According to the teachings of the catholic Church, Mary, while she was conceived without the stain of original sin, was free to accept or reject God’s offer to be the mother of the Messiah.
Mary was saved because she was part of the human race, not because she sinned. God made it POSSIBLE for all mankind to be reconciled to the Father and therefor enter into His Kingdom unless they were to die in the sins they committed after baptism and remained on their souls at death because they chose not to repent and seek forgiveness. You will recall that Jesus gave the power to loose and bind sins, to the Apostles.
So the short answer is that God the Father chose Mary among all women of all time to participate in the incarnation of the Word. Only God knows if she needed saving because it was His decision to bring our Lord into the world through a spotless virgin; but because she was part of the human race, she benefitted by our Lord’s life, death and resurrection. If God the father created her without sin, there would be no need to save her and neither one of us knows why He would do what he did but then again, we do know that God’s ways are so far above our understanding that it will always remain a mystery and hence the need to be taken on faith.
Anthony states:
If any person, church, priest, man or woman speaks things that go against the the bible, and claim that they are protected by God against “the gates of hell” when doing so, then there is something very, very wrong. Somewhere down the line, within the past 2,000 years, something went horribly astray. Whether it was a single man or a full-on religious group splitting from the original apostolic church, creating their own church and using their OWN interpretation of scripture, all the while claiming they are still an apostolic church (when they were NOT), I can’t speak on. I will say this, though: Never will I accept any teaching that is in opposition to the bible. The Catholic religion is full of man-mad traditions that are clearly in opposition to what the bible teaches, and thus why they’re teachings should always be questioned, if not fully dismissed as being Truth. End of quote.
And so it is. You will leave this life believing what you trust is the Truth and so will I. Nothing short of dying and being in the Full Presence of God will allow either one of us to know how well we chose our path.
I’m not trying to convert anyone here but I think it’s worthwhile to challenge statements about the Catholic faith I know to be untrue. You will continue to believe what you have been taught and so will I and the one comforting statement from the Gospels is that our Lord told His Apostles that those who aren’t against us are for us and since we both proclaim Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, it would appear we are allies, even if we don’t necessarily have the same battle plan.
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
2 Peter 2:2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Jesus said:
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
I sense that some of Paul’s teachings are contadict to the LORD Jesus’.
Do not hate yourselves. Deliver your words in love and respectful way.
Jesus said to love our enemy but Paul said to love our neigbors and hate our enemy. I didn’t hear Paul said that but many people said he did and they compared Jesus and Paul’s teachings.
I’m in Christ.
“You will recall that Jesus gave the power to loose and bind sins, to the Apostles.”
You may also recall 1 John 1:8-10:
“8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”
The problem is, it’s not Mary that says, “I am without sin” – she actually claims that she was in need of a “savior”, it’s the Catholic church that says such a thing. So it’s not MARY that’s calling God a liar, but rather it is the Catholic church that is implying that He is. Because if you claim that someone is “without sin”, the “TRUTH is not IN you.”
“Mary was saved because she was part of the human race, not because she sinned.”
When a lie is created, a lie has to be covered. This is why we use the bible for “reproof” and “correction.” It’s for reasons such as THIS that 1 John 1:8-10 exists.
You say, “So the short answer is that God the Father chose Mary among all women of all time to participate in the incarnation of the Word.”
True, but this is not an “answer” to my question of whether or not she is a sinner. This is simply a correct statement.
You say, “and neither one of us knows why He would do what he did”
He didn’t do what you claim He did. It’s written, so I do know.
You say, “we do know that God’s ways are so far above our understanding that it will always remain a mystery and hence the need to be taken on faith.”
No one denied God’s ways are superior to man’s ways, it’s the placing of a mere MAN on LEVEL with a God SO HIGH in standards so as to be SPOTLESS that you are being called out on. HE is “spotless” and “without sin”, and you claim “SO IS MAN.”
“You will continue to believe what you have been taught and so will I”
This is the problem. My mother is a Catholic, so it’s God I’m listening to, not what I’ve been taught. You on the other hand won’t sway from what has been ingrained in your heart and mind since you were a child, because you are content with your position. Instead of letting the Holy Spirit guide you, you let man guide you. This is why Muslims are Muslims and Jews are Jews, because if they would listen to GOD, instead of what they have been TAUGHT, then they also would know Jesus and they also would declare that it is only GOD who is sinless.
The Truth is right in front of your face and you keep denying it over and over again. You keep making God out to be a liar over and over again You’ll dig and dig to try to cover up these lies I’d bet deep down you don’t even believe are true. It’s sad enough that you don’t see the Light, but the bigger problem is that the false doctrine you speak will eventually lead some other soul down a path of thinking Mary is their guide into salvation.
You say, “the one comforting statement from the Gospels is that our Lord told His Apostles that those who aren’t against us are for us and since we both proclaim Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, it would appear we are allies, even if we don’t necessarily have the same battle plan.”
I hate to be harsh here, but your plan is what will lead many into damnation. You don’t strike me as someone arguing JUST to argue, so if you heart is sincere, I pray that the Lord open your eyes to see the Truth.
For all others, to those reading from here on in, if you have not yet made up your mind, I know it is a long read, but please go over everything that has been written on both pages and then take it from there. It would be better to do that then to come out guns blazing, as I’m sure that at least some of what you’d like to ask has been discussed already. I believe that God’s true children will be drawn to that which is True – they may be deceived for a while, but they will eventually find their way home. May the Lord bless His children and open their eyes to the Truth. Amen.
Oh Thank you Anthony, after I read that prayer at the end of your comment. I found this page http://www.markbeast.org/mark-beast-666.html without even searching about it. It explain about the Revelation but I hope this is the truth:) God Bless you.
Mark 7:6-9 says, “Jesus answered them, “How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote: ’These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!’ “You put aside God’s command and obey human teachings.” And Jesus continued, “You have a clever way of rejecting God’s law in order to uphold your own teaching.”
Forgive me for my true belief. God’s word tells us
that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
No person who ever lived has been without sin.
Even Christians sin still, though by God’s grace when
we receive His holy spirit within, we know our sin and
must repent. God is ever ready to forgive us.
Does not the pope take confession? I have no idea.
Also, what the RC Church calls saints is but what the
Bible calls all who are His.
I think everyone is equal in the eyes of God when they
belong to Him. He certainly loves us all.
Satan loves to be worshipped. When they worship Mary, they’re worshiping Satan without knowing it. Sunday is not a worship day for God, Sunday is a day of Satan. We read that God commanded us to worship Him only in Sabbath day but why it was moved to Sun? Because of Satan great idea working through a false prophet or a religious leader, and the deceiver. Now if we arent aware of this and keep on obeying the law of a man that we didn’t realize a false prophet, that is the time we are marked by the beast. God is not pointing His finger to an individual sin but He is pointing to some churches and that is where His wrath started. We can understand it in Revelation why God is angry and still people did not repent until the judgement day. We heard that we shouldn’t pray or bow to anything that are made up of woods, that is consider honoring them. In revelation, there are images of beast and it’s clear that this beast is already existing. The antichrist existed already who taught us peace in the name of God to deceive many. It’s just a summ.. Now we should stop praying or worshipping to any dead saints, that is the idea of Satan. Let’s pray directly to God.
It’s not my own idea, it’s from a pastor who taught us and from some people’s prophesy and visions.
Acts 2:17 In the last days, God says, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” This are the signs and warnings that the last day is coming. Before it’s too late, I hope many of God’s children will find the truth. God bless us all.
jfyi when it says mary was conceived without sinning it means that she was pregnant without sinning, she has conceived without sinning…because she was a an unwed virgin. Context make its more clear that is what is meant by the verse, not that she was perfect, as the child, Jesus Christ, she was pregnant with is.
jacqueline petrucci says:
“Jesus today has long been in the heavenly sanctuary deciding who are
the chosen and what they have done. He entered there in 1844 by
bible prophecy,”
What the Heck are you talking about?
John says:
Christ IS THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME THROUGH AND WITH HIM WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY INTO HEAVEN, but that is not to say that Mary, his mother
is not permitted to lead souls to her son.
John- The only spiritual being who leads souls to Christ is God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit. Are you equating Mary with the 3rd person of the trinity?
Disclaimer: I will never be rude or hateful to a Catholic, my in-laws are Catholic and I mean no hatred, only love.
I agree with Anthony and will state it plainly: The Catholic’s worship of Mary/praying to Mary or saints is BLASPHEMY. We are to pray to none but the father, nor call no man on Earth our father (priests).
God specifically points these things out for a reason. You will be absolutely without excuse on the day of judgement. It is plain as black and white, He foresaw this error and addressed in in His word yet you all continue to disobey. I am not God and cannot judge but If I were Him I would feel angry that you are giving my glory to another (God expresses this sentiment over and over in the Bible).
Apologetics are great, but without the supernatural work of the Spirit in opening minds, eyes and hearts, It is to none avail.
I pray God will have mercy on all of us, that we would not be lead astray and that He would reveal His truth to His sheep.
Herein lies the danger of self interpretation, something the Apostles were all too familiar with.
How is it that the Holy Spirit would permit such a erroneous understanding of divine revelation?
Obviously He didn’t but this is the inherent danger in not having a teaching authority.
I will repeat, there was no bible to misinterpret during the first two – three centuries and had there not been a teaching authority ( the Apostles ) Christianity would have splintered into all sorts of false understandings, of false doctrine. Which it turns out, is what happened after the great schism of the 16th century.
If you really want to know what to believe regarding Sacred Scripture, pick up the books that tell about the early Church Fathers, the Bishops, and their brilliant theological renderings. Origen, Augustine, Ambrose, Cyprian, Cyril of Alexandria, Thomas Aquinas and many others. Read about liturgy in those beginning years. Learn how the earliest Christians prayed and their understanding of the Lord’s Supper. Arm yourselves with valuable knowledge. Go back to the many centuries before the reformation and learn who protected Christians from false teachings and who set down the doctrines given to them by our Lord while he taught them on earth. Try to get past the notion that anything that contradicts your understanding of scripture, must be and always is from satan. Study the early Church.
1 Corinthians 5:8
Acts 1:10
Galatians 1:8
/praying
I am not sure if this is a catholic or protestant web site, I am just trying to get a question that has me wondering. This has to do with praying to anyone else that is not God.
1. “You shall have no other gods before me” no where does this say except for my son. It says you will only pray to God, Not the father, the son and the holy ghost. It does not says to end you prayers with “In Jesus name we pray, Amen”.
2. “You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” No where in this does it says build a giant cross or a giant cross with Jesus on it. It does not say build grandiose churches with statues of saints and the virgin Mary to pray or pay respects to. In fact he specifically says DO NOT DO THIS, For I am a jealous God.
I just want to know how between the time of Moses and the righting of the books of the new testament, these fundamentals can completely change.
Gerald says:
January 27, 2012 at 9:26 pm
I am not sure if this is a catholic or protestant web site, I am just trying to get a question that has me wondering. This has to do with praying to anyone else that is not God.
1. “You shall have no other gods before me” no where does this say except for my son. It says you will only pray to God, Not the father, the son and the holy ghost. It does not says to end you prayers with “In Jesus name we pray, Amen”.
2. “You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” No where in this does it says build a giant cross or a giant cross with Jesus on it. It does not say build grandiose churches with statues of saints and the virgin Mary to pray or pay respects to. In fact he specifically says DO NOT DO THIS, For I am a jealous God.
I just want to know how between the time of Moses and the righting of the books of the new testament, these fundamentals can completely change. End of Quote
Good questions!
In your first question you take a passage from the Hebrew Scriptures i.e. the Old Testament and set it apart from the New Testament in which new commandments and new understandings are presented by Christ. It’s important to know the purpose, or maybe better stated, the meaning of the Old Testament. Everything revealed in the Old Testament pre figured and pointed towards the promised Messiah, the new and everlasting covenant in the Blood of the Pascal Lamb, Jesus the Christ. Whatever understanding existed before His entering into humanity, it was now fully revealed in the Person of Christ. Moses permitted under certain conditions, divorce. It was done, as Christ Himself stated, because of the hardness of the hearts of the people at that time. But Christ said that what God has joined together, let no man put asunder. Divorce was explicitly forbidden. On a different occasion, when questioned by a scribe, Christ was asked about the two greatest commandments and He answered the way the Jews would have known was correct but then He said that there is to be a new understanding of how you are to treat your neighbor, you are to treat them as I do. Which we know is unconditionally and even unto death.
These are but a few examples of how we are to view the Old Testament. What had been partially revealed then was now fully revealed in Christ. God the Father only alluded to His Son in the Old Testament, especially through Isaiah but now through the Gospel writers, the Son was fully revealed and the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was fully revealed in the New Testament. If you really look closely at all the inter related passages regarding the triune nature of God, you come to the reality that by praying to any one of the three Persons, you are praying to them all. It has to be that way because there is only one God but that God has three natures. This is understood by the Catholic Church as an unknowable mystery that must be taken on faith but will be revealed fully upon our physical death and our soul coming before this God. This is sort of a long answer so a little later I will attempt to answer your second question.
Gerald, your second question can be answered in a similar fashion to the first. The Old Testament was dealing with people who literally had been practicing pagan rituals. They were
worshipping statues and other man made images as if they were actually gods and had some sort of power over nature. God, through Moses, corrected that error by telling them that there is only one true God and He is that God and there is no image or likeness and there is nothing you can imagine that is actually Him.
But again, that all changed with the birth of Christ. It was now possible to see the image of God in human form. He had a body and a face and even if the future renderings were not precise, they still represented Jesus the Christ, the second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. So the early Church’s artwork depicting our Lord was no sin. Just as it was not and is not now a sin to memorialize the crucifixion of our Lord by placing his likeness on wooden crosses.
As far as statues of Mary and Joseph and other saints are concerned, Catholics do not worship these images, they use them to call to mind the holy lives they lived on earth with the hopes of emulating them for the glory and pleasure of God. While lifting their minds to these spiritual ideals, the faithful ask for the powerful intercessory prayer the Church teaches they can offer on our behalf. You certainly don’t have to believe this is possible or necessary but if it’s true, you are missing out on some pretty powerful spiritual aid. But you will most likely do as you were taught.
Old Testament reveals Promise, New Testament reveals fulfillment. The God and His word remain unchanged and eternal and will continue after the world ceases to exist, for “heaven and earth shall pass away: but my word shall not pass away” (Luke21:33)
Since the beginning of the time God has not changed His will nor the Word by which He communicates His will, toward mankind. He revealed to the prophet Malachia: “I am the Lord, I change not.” (Mal.3:6) and James described Him as “the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)
Deuteronomy 12:32, Leviticus 26:1
Revelation 22:19
Acts 17:29
(1 Timothy 2:5) There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27
describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html
Mquia says:
January 29, 2012 at 12:41 am
Old Testament reveals Promise, New Testament reveals fulfillment. End of Quote
The Old Testament reveals to humanity that there is only one God.
The New Testament reveals to humanity, the true and full nature of God. We do not know from the Old Testament that Jesus is the Son of God and the Word through which all things are created. In the Old Testament we are told that the way to God is through obeying His commands, His laws. In the New Testament we are told that the way to God is through His Son Who is the Truth and the Life and the Way.
That sounds more like the completion of revelation, than it does promise and fulfillment.
It is true that Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise but the fact that Jesus, the Word Incarnate actually entered into our humanity, became man, while remaining to be God, is the reason or purpose for the promise. Because Jesus is God, He stated, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. This was as far as God could go in revealing Himself short of the beatific vision, which no man can survive while living.
The promise in the Old Testament was to the Jews, it was for them the Messiah was to come. In the New Testament the discover the Messiah is for all mankind. That was a rather dramatic change but it was not really a change, it was the completion of revelation.
If you were a Jew in the first century and then were baptized a Christian, it was no longer necessary to be circumcised it was no longer a requirement for salvation. If you had been eating pork on Saturday as a Jew you had broken the law and sinned against God but if on Sunday, you ate Pork as a newly baptized Christian, you have not sinned, you are still right with the Lord.
Dietary laws CHANGED. These things are most certainly in the Old Testament and they changed but only because Christ fully revealed what God wanted from His highest form of creation, obedience to His Son’s Words. That is why God the Father, at the transfiguration, stated, ” This is my Son of Whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM.”
Jesus Himself stated that He hadn’t come to take away the law and He didn’t, He simply gave humanity the perfect understanding of the meaning and purpose for the law. Unnecessary parts or components of the law were eliminated but the heart of the law concerning, the purpose for it’s existence, Love, remained. Love God above all else and love your fellow man as Christ loved and continues to love and you will have obeyed all of the laws.