Should We Pray to Dead Saints?
ob,
In reference to your friend wanting to pray to a “dead saint” – there are verses in the Bible that say that we are not to try and communicate with the dead. The “dead” are those humans who have already died and passed over to the other side – whether it be to heaven or to hell.
I believe God is telling us with the word “communicate” that we are not to even try and pray to them. The reason is obvious. They are in heaven. They are not omnipresent like God is. And even if someone should try and pray to them – there is no way that person would even hear your prayers to begin with unless God would allow it or would transmit the prayer to them.
Even though that dead saint is up in heaven – this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God’s full, supernatural power to answer your prayer in the first place – and who probably will not even hear or pick up your prayer anyway, since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.
When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament – but He did not!
The reason for this is because God the Father is a jealous God. He, and He alone, is our one and only true God and Father. He, and He alone, is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
Jesus’ death on the cross has now opened up the gates to heaven. The Bible tells us that we can now boldly approach the throne of God for prayer and intimate communication anytime we want. If you will notice, it says to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!
I personally believe that when some people start praying to dead saints instead of going direct to God the Father, I think they may actually be hurting God’s feelings.
Here God is, sitting up in heaven, only wanting to help us in this life – and then all of a sudden He sees one of His own going direct to a dead saint who has no supernatural power on his own to answer any part of their specific prayer request. However, I know He knows that many of His people do it out of ignorance because they really do not know what the Bible says about all of this, and they do not understand how the big picture is all set up.
Bob, here are some specific Scripture verses telling us that we are not to attempt to commune with the dead. The clue is in the word “medium” or “spiritist.” A medium is one who attempts to call up the dead in order for that person to be able to communicate with that dead person. This is what you call a basic seance.
There are several well know mediums right now who are all over the place on TV actually doing séances for people to try and reach their dead loved ones. If God the Father is condemning this kind of activity as you will see in the following verses – then I also believe that you can extrapolate on this and assume that God does not want you trying to communicate direct with the dead even on your own.
If God does not want a medium trying to contact the dead for you – then I also believe it is safe to assume that God does not want you trying to contact the dead through any kind of prayer effort on your own. When you start trying to pray to a dead saint, you are attempting to try and communicate directly with the one you are praying to.
Bottom line:
- God the Father is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
- God has it set up through His Son’s death on the cross that we are to approach His throne, and His throne alone, with any of our specific prayer requests. He does not want us going to anyone else, either in heaven above or on this earth.
We can ask others down here to pray for us and with us, to pray in agreement with us, but we are not to pray direct to any human down here for them to actually answer any of our specific prayers.
So if it would be ridiculous for us to pray to someone else down here on this earth to actually answer any of our specific prayers, then it only stands to reason that it would be just as ridiculous to pray direct to a dead saint up in heaven to answer any of our specific prayers.
The other question some people have on this is if they can pray and ask a dead saint to pray direct to God for them as an actual intercessor. Again, even doing this is still an attempt to try and communicate with this dead saint, and as such, I do not believe God wants us doing this. There are enough people down here on this earth that we can ask to pray for us and with us without having to go direct to dead saints who are living up in heaven.
The Scripture Verses
Here are 4 very good verses specifically telling us that we are not to have anything to do with “mediums” or the “calling up of the dead.”
- “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)
- “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
- “And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
- “So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
Notice the words “calls up the dead,” and the statement that God makes that this practice is an abomination in His eyes! When you are attempting to call up the dead, you are attempting to try and directly communicate with them.
Notice that God uses the word “prostitute” as an analogy. You are prostituting yourself against God when you start seeking supernatural help or guidance from any one else but Him!
King Saul got into big trouble with God when he asked a witch to call up the prophet Samuel who had already died. He literally incurred the wrath of God when he did this, and this eventually led to his downfall and early death.
Notice the verse says that the reason Saul was trying to call up Samuel was for guidance. Instead of going direct to God the Father for the guidance that he was needing, he tries to contact one of God’s dead saints. Samuel was a great man and a great prophet of God, but God was wanting Saul to come directly to Him for any guidance that he was needing, not to a dead saint!
This story is a perfect example showing that we are to go directly to God the Father if we need any help with anything, not to any dead saints who are living up in heaven.
Bob – also notice the very intense language that God is using when He is warning us not to attempt to try and communicate with the dead.
He is telling us that it is an “abomination” in His eyes, and that He will set His face against us if we try and do it. He also says that this kind of activity “defiles” us in His eyes. I do not think God could give us any more of a stricter warning on this issue than by the way that He has worded all of the above Scripture verses.
Even though some people are not consulting mediums when they are trying to pray to dead saints, I believe they are still trying to communicate directly with them through their direct prayer efforts and they are thus violating a basic direct commandment from the Lord on this issue.
I do not know if this will help your friend or if she will agree with any part of this, but those are my thoughts on this issue and what I feel God is trying to tell us through His Word on this subject.
Many people are engaging in séances these days, as it is a big part of the New Age Movement. Trying to do any part of this could be major door openers to the dark side. Demons can definitely come in on some of these people who try and play this game. Many times, the medium is literally taken over by a demonic spirit masquerading as a dear, departed, loved one, and a demon is literally speaking through the medium’s vocal cords imitating the departed love one.
If you have any more questions on this topic, let me know and I will do the best I can to answer your specific questions.
Other links and articles for Christianity.
U.S. Lobbies for Release of Afghan Converts - WSJ.com
Incarnation_(christianity) encyclopedia topics | Reference.com
Book Review: God Is Red - WSJ.com
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Michael Bradley
Bible Teaching and Bible Commentary,
Over 150 Free Bible LessonsScripture taken from New King James Version.
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As you mentioned, there is no need for mediation, why we pray for others. Every body can pray directly to god.
Hello,
I agree with what you say, but I can’t find anything scriptural to deny a certain claim that some make regarding praying to dead Saints. They say that since we -are- to pray for one another while here on earth, and that it’s pleasing to God to do so, and since even Paul asked others to pray -for- him, that it’s okay to ask the Saints to pray for us, as well, because they are not dead, but rather, “alive in Christ.” Can you touch on this a bit, please?
Thanks
“Pray For” is you pray to God for someone. For example, your best friend Bob is sick, you pray for him means that you [pray to God] and tell God to cure Bob or put Bob on his hands.
“Pray To” is you pray to someone, including God.
Hi Johnson,
Yes, I know the difference between praying “to” someone and praying “for” someone. What I’m saying, though, is this:
It’s okay that we pray -for- one another here on earth – such a thing is actually “pleasing” to God, according to the 1 Timothy 2:1-4. So if I need spiritual guidance, I ask one of my spiritual friends to pray -to- God, -for- me.
Now this is where it starts to get a bit tricky. What -many- people say is that because the Saints are not dead, but rather alive in Christ, that it is “okay” for us to ask them to pray FOR us – and that we are not “praying to dead Saints”, but rather “praying to Saints that are alive.” It’s not that we pray -to- them, but because they are “alive in Christ” and not dead, that we can -ask- them to pray FOR us the same way I would ask a living friend of mine to pray for me.
The problem I have with that is this:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV):
“For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and mankind, the MAN Christ Jesus”
Jesus is the only person we should go through to reach God, not the Saints. But many say that the Saints are the mediator between man and Jesus. I believe such an idea is man-made as it is 100% not biblically supported. Not a single shred of scripture will back such a statement. You never read Jesus tell -anyone- to ask Abraham, or Moses, or whomever else to pray -for- them. But yet people think it’s okay to do. They –assume– that it’s “okay” because they apply the 1 Timothy 2:1-4 passage to those who have passed, and claim that they are not “dead”, and thus are able to pray -for- us. It honestly does not sound right to me. Jesus, as far as I’m concerned, and as it is —actually— written, is the ONLY mediator between God and us, not the Saints – not Mary or anyone else.
So that is where I’m stuck at the moment. Is it or is it not okay to ask deceased Saints (that, supposedly, are “alive in Christ) to pray -for- us -to- God?
Reacting to the writer on the topic, Should We Pray to Dead Saints?, I wish to state here that:
…on our Catholic doctrine, those who understand, no explanation is necessary and for those who do not, like the writer, NO EXPLANATION IS SUFFICIENT.
God bless you.
Domino,
We can’t all be right, and the things that many Catholics do, including praying to dead Saints, is wrong.
When you have someone (the Pope) who is in charge of leading MILLIONS of people by EXAMPLE, kneeling down, on his knees, in front of a STATUE of Mary, is this really the type of leader you feel comfortable following without question?
If the Pope truly had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, would the Holy Spirit allow him to BOW DOWN to a statue? Who is worthy of bowing down to? Can you step outside of yourself and honestly answer that question? If not, then let’s look at Acts and see what happened AFTER Paul had received the Holy Spirit within him:
Acts 10:25-26:
“As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
The man FELL at Paul’s FEET, but Paul MADE the man get UP. Do you see the contrast? The Pope bows DOWN to a STATUE, and Paul make a man that is bowing down to him GET UP.
These actions are not Mary’s fault – MAN placed her in a higher position than God. These actions are also not the Saints fault, but rather MAN’s fault for placing them in a higher position than God. Man’s fault for assuming. So you can blame following man-made acts to that of a lack of understanding, but I call nonsense on that and so does scripture. It clearly tells us that there is only ONE mediator between God and Man, and His name is Jesus. Mark 4:9.
May God bless us all.
Anthony, well said! as the writer puts it; The dead saints are not omnipresent like God is, calling upon them to pray for us,to me its just a waste of time.
In the beginning God! No mary no joseph no peter paul no timothy no enemy no john no michael. So if the beinning God no sky no cloud no rain no prayer no existence no prayer no salvation. God! Now all things were created by Him and for Him! Heaven and earth, kingdoms and throne. Powers, rulers…it would be nice to keep it just as in the simplicity of Jesus himself. Prayer belongs to God. Jesus said I AM! to make it a lil more clear I am the way the truth and the the life. He is salvation he is the air we breath it all belongs to God! He is the ressurection and life. He is above all:) King Jesus Amen
I have a few questions for my Protestant brethren,
In the weeks and months and then years that followed the death and resurrection of our Lord,
were these Christians who were being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
taking their instruction on how to live holy and Christ like lives, from the Christian Bible or from the Apostles?
Since anybody possessing honest knowledge of the Christian Bible knows that it wasn’t even in existence for many decades and not widely read or heard for centuries, the truth is that the Apostles were the authority in matters of faith and morals and Christ chose for it to be that way or He would not have given them the authority to baptize, to loose and bind sin, also, He would not have given the keys to the Kingdom to Peter.
If the Bible is the sole authority in such matters, and each individual is allowed to interpret scripture with the desire that it be done with the aid of the Holy Spirit, are the interpretations of a person who makes little effort to study all of the nuances and styles or forms of writing, equal to a Scripture scholar who spends countless hours in prayer to the Holy Spirit and to Christ and to His Father in an effort to discern correctly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? If they differ, how does one know which person actually was instructed by the Holy Spirit? If one person uses Sacred Scripture to denounce abortion as evil and a grave sin against God and humanity, and another uses Sacred Scripture to accept abortion as a good in some instances, is the Holy Spirit contradicting Itself or is sin relative in the eyes of God?
As regards the Pope kneeling before a statue of our Blessed Mother, you should know that he is kneeling before the woman who brought our Lord into this world and who holds a place of honor in heaven below only that of the Triune Godhead. While carrying Jesus in her womb for nine months, her Immaculate Heart and our Lord’s Sacred Heart were mere inches apart and in heaven
no being, not even the highest of angels, have the recourse to the Sacred Heart of Jesus that our Blessed Mother has. One may proclaim that Sacred Scripture does not make that implicitly true but then how do you explain the modern miracles taking place in Kibeho Africa, Medjugorje, Lourdes France, Fatima Portugal, Guadalupe Mexico or Garabandal Spain. It is either satan performing all these good works or, an incomplete understanding of the role Mary plays in salvation history.
In the Old Testament, Eve is most often referred to as the WOMAN and in the book of Revelation, it is the WOMAN clothed with the sun who will defeat satan and in the Gospels of the New Testament, Christ refers to His mother as WOMAN. Is that just coincidence or does the Catholic Church, the continuation of the Apostolic teaching authority have this correctly.
What did the early Church fathers have to say about the Mother of our Lord and Savior and do you think that having lived in her presence and having been instructed by our Lord Himself, and then passing that knowledge on directly to their successors, maybe they got this right?
Kneeling in front of an image of the WOMAN who cooperated with the plan of God for our salvation, by saying yes and bringing Him into the world, nurturing Him and being at His side, even to His horrific death and burial, is no sin but a humble act of reverence in the hope that she and her Son will find favor with his prayers.
Does not Scripture state that God loves a humble heart?
Thank you for putting up with my thought and questions; may you have a blessed and joy filled advent season and rejoice in the memory of the birth of our Lord, the Word made flesh who did dwell amongst us and does today in His Mystical Body, the Church.
Anthony says:
December 1, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Domino,
We can’t all be right, and the things that many Catholics do, including praying to dead Saints, is wrong.
When you have someone (the Pope) who is in charge of leading MILLIONS of people by EXAMPLE, kneeling down, on his knees, in front of a STATUE of Mary, is this really the type of leader you feel comfortable following without question?
If the Pope truly had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, would the Holy Spirit allow him to BOW DOWN to a statue? Who is worthy of bowing down to? Can you step outside of yourself and honestly answer that question? If not, then let’s look at Acts and see what happened AFTER Paul had received the Holy Spirit within him:
Acts 10:25-26:
“As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
The man FELL at Paul’s FEET, but Paul MADE the man get UP. Do you see the contrast? The Pope bows DOWN to a STATUE, and Paul make a man that is bowing down to him GET UP.
These actions are not Mary’s fault – MAN placed her in a higher position than God. These actions are also not the Saints fault, but rather MAN’s fault for placing them in a higher position than God. Man’s fault for assuming. So you can blame following man-made acts to that of a lack of understanding, but I call nonsense on that and so does scripture. It clearly tells us that there is only ONE mediator between God and Man, and His name is Jesus. Mark 4:9.
May God bless us all.
Anthony,
If Catholics did in fact place Mary or the Saints in heaven above God and worship them as if they were equal to or greater than God, all you stated would be true and a grave sin would have been committed, but Catholics do not worship anyone or anything other that the Triune God.
Mary is held in great esteem and the Church considers her the mother of all souls, here on earth and in heaven. As our mother, she wants only one thing, to draw hearts to her Son and to exhort all men to live in the Will of the Father and be holy as the Father is Holy. The Church believes that she is in the unique position to accomplish just such a desire and sometimes in ways that come from the spiritual realm and are outside the constraints of time and space. These occurrences are well documented and not infrequent.
As concerns the Saints in heaven; the Catholic Church refers to those of us on earth who have been baptized into Christ as being the church militant and those souls in heaven as the church triumphant. We on earth are fighting the good fight that saint Paul referred to in his letter or epistles, a fight against the forces of evil that prowl about the earth seeking the ruin of souls.
Once we pass from time into eternity and once we enter heaven, we have won that continues battle and truly are triumphant. It’s really only one church and there is no reason whatever to think that God does not permit or that he doesn’t desire that the saints in heaven pray for those of us on earth. If satan is permitted to enroll the services of fallen angels, why would not the righteous angels and their brethren the saints, not be enlisted to counter evil?
Praying to the saints in heaven and the archangels, seraphim and cherubim, is not only not wrong but is most wise. There is much going on in the spiritual realm that we cannot fully appreciate or comprehend but that does not mean it isn’t real or actual. Not believing something exists does not in any way alter that reality. One may say that they do not believe in hell but that won’t be worth much if that is where they spend eternity.
There are three very important Catholic teachings that are a tremendous benefit to souls working out their salvation; The role Mary plays in salvation history as the protectress of the believers,
the communion of saints and their role in salvation history as protectors and intercessors and Purgatory and the value of all prayers for those souls suffering the temporary separation from God while they are being purged of those attributes that remained with them onto death but were not in accord with the Will of God. Souls who have none praying for them have no ability of their own to mitigate suffering and increase hope while they are being purified.
I’m well aware that most if not all Protestants reject this teaching / belief but not believing in this reality will be of no use if your soul is in fact residing there.
That is why I pray daily for those friends of mine who have passed from this life and who as Protestants, reject this existence.
Jesus died for you and he loves you and thats all I have to say amen
Your whole argument is based on the fact that praying to saints is praying to dead people. Saints are in heaven and in union with God, are you saying heaven is a place for the dead? Your body dies, you don’t die for Jesus is ethernal life. Read: Mat 19:29, 25:46, Mat 10:17-22, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25-30, Lk 18:18-30, Jn 3:15-16
Second of all, true catholics don’t pray for saints to grant them things, we ask for them to pray with us, they are not dead since they are in heaven. “Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.” (Lk 20:39-40). What is wrong with this? Don’t we ask each other to pray for one another? I ask my parents to pray for me. Is their prayer a waste of time? Should i tell my dad to stop praying for me, that i can just pray to God directly?. I ask a saint to pray to God, just like i ask my family, this NEVER replaces my prayers to Him. Do not criticise if you don’t understand what we do.
josh says:
December 22, 2011 at 12:34 am
Jesus died for you and he loves you and thats all I have to say amen
Josh,
Amen!
I feel saddened when I read some comments here, it’s okay for pope to bow to a statue of mary! I mean exodus 20:4-5 its written Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV
You shall not make for yourself a carved imageany likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate
Me,and one still defends the pope bowing to a statue!.. He is not a God for him to be ruled out of this command. He is human. Not forgetting catholics have their own missal.. Mass book for the year, teaching or preaching should come from within, as the Holyspirit moves you, not from a missal like a school teacher using a text book for their students! Using beads to pray.. Where didthat come from? To mary? She is dead, we can only assume she is in heaven.. Mathew 20:31-32. Matthew 22:31-32 NKJV
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.He is not a God of the dead.. What do we make from this?? Are yu praying to a Godless thing! How will it help yu! Anyways I have been born and raised catholic its now at 32yrs am coming to the real truth am not yet done digging it out, I need for my family to know the truth hopefully I pray God will open their hearts to receive the truth like i did. It’s really sad. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.
1.) You say, “If Catholics did in fact place Mary or the Saints in heaven above God and worship them as if they were equal to or greater than God, all you stated would be true and a grave sin would have been committed, but Catholics do not worship anyone or anything other that the Triune God.”
What you say and what you do are two different things. It doesn’t matter if you say you don’t, your actions speak louder than anything that can ever come from your mouth.
2.) You say, “Mary is held in great esteem and the Church considers her the mother of all souls, here on earth and in heaven.”
My soul has ONE Mother, ONE Father, ONE Owner: God. It’s the Catholic church that gives her titles she does not deserve, not scripture, NOR Jesus, but rather the Catholic church!
If you think about it, even JESUS never called her “mother,” yet the Catholic church concludes that she is the “mother of all souls.”
What did Jesus say/do when His “mother” asked to speak to Him?
Matthew 12:49-50:
“49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
He stretched out His hand to WHO? Mary??? NO! His DISCIPLES! Jesus did not accept her as His mother, and Catholic church makes her the “mother of all.” You come to such a conclusion on your OWN, not because of scripture, NOT because of what Jesus said, but because of what you believe to be true. You rely on your self and Mary to guide you into salvation, leaving The Father and Son and scripture in the background. Whenever I hear a Catholic speak, I never hear Jesus. It’s always about Mary. Songs for Mary, Prayers to Mary. Wake up!!!
4.) You say, “Not believing something exists does not in any way alter that reality.”
- Well believing in something surely does not make it true, either. Someone is wrong!
5.) You say, “As regards the Pope kneeling before a statue of our Blessed Mother, you should know that he is kneeling before the woman who brought our Lord into this world…”
- Here’s something YOU should know. It was a STATUE, not a “WOMAN.” He was not, “kneeling before the woman”, as you say above. You do realize this, don’t you? It was a piece of plastic the man was kneeling in front of, not a real woman. It would STILL be wrong if it WAS a woman, but it was not!
- I don’t care what excuse you have as to why a man bows DOWN to a statue, it is NOT RIGHT. PERIOD! You feel validated of what the Pope did because you have an excuse? Really? Peter shows us such a thing is not right, and you choose to turn a blind eye towards what he did.
Let it be know that what YOU do is not Mary’s fault, but rather YOUR fault and the fault of like-minded people who put HER (she doesn’t put herself) on a higher pedestal than God or a pedestal “right beneath the Triune Godhead.” You see? YOU do that, NOT MARY. If Mary was here, in flesh, and if she had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, like Peter did, SHE, TOO, would have made the Pope, “STAND UP.” She, TOO, would make everyone place God FIRST in their lives. Sing songs about HIM, and ask that you pay her NO ATTENTION. You will never accept this, though. So keep kneeling in front of inanimate objects.
- “and who holds a place of honor in heaven below only that of the Triune Godhead.”
SHOW ME, please, exactly, how you came to this conclusion other than ASSUMING such is the case. Please. If not anything else, show me THIS. Show me what you say is not more than WORDS spoken from your mouth, and that such words actually point to a Truth. Please.
5.) You say, “One may proclaim that Sacred Scripture does not make that implicitly true but then how do you explain the modern miracles taking place in Kibeho Africa, Medjugorje, Lourdes France, Fatima Portugal, Guadalupe Mexico or Garabandal Spain.”
What miracles? Images in the sky? You depend NOT on scripture, but rather on “miracles” you see in the sky? Visions, perhaps? Is it not said, “…for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light???” If what you imply was of ANY importance, it would be in scripture. Period. If what you say held AN OUNCE of importance with regard to our SALVATION, it would be in the bible. PERIOD!
6.) You say, “It is either satan performing all these good works or, an incomplete understanding of the role Mary plays in salvation history.”
- What are these “good works” you speak of? Please, tell me.
- Mary plays NOT ONE ROLE in our salvation. NONE! JESUS is the Way, NOT MARY!!! May the Lord open your eyes so that you see this.
7.) You say, “What did the early Church fathers have to say about the Mother of our Lord and Savior and do you think that having lived in her presence and having been instructed by our Lord Himself, ”
- “…being instructed by our Lord Himself” to do what? You didn’t finish that sentence. Please, finish it. WHAT, exactly, did the Lord “Himself” instruct the the Church to do with regard to Mary? Please be sure to provide scripture.
8.) You say, “Kneeling in front of an image of the WOMAN who cooperated with the plan of God for our salvation, by saying yes and bringing Him into the world, nurturing Him and being at His side, even to His horrific death and burial, is no sin but a humble act of reverence in the hope that she and her Son will find favor with his prayers.”
You are doing the SAME thing Cornelius did to Peter:
“Cornelius met him and FELL at his FEET in REVERENCE. BUT, Peter MADE HIM get UP. ‘STAND UP,’ he said, ‘I am ONLY a MAN myself.”
You are confusing BOWING with bowing DOWN. There is a HUGE difference. BOWING does NOT mean you KNEEL, it means you use the TOP half of your body to bow in reverence – as a sign of respect – the way those in martial arts would bow. Bowing DOWN means you are on your KNEES, pretty much face down against the floor, falling at someones “FEET”, like Cornelius. THAT is what the Pope does and THAT is what you say is “okay” to do.
If you want to bow DOWN to statues of Mary, then surely that is YOUR choice, but again, be reminded of what Peter (someone we ALL can agree HAD the Holy Spirit within Him) said above when the man bowed DOWN in front of him: “STAND UP!”
9.) You say, “If the Bible is the sole authority in such matters, and each individual is allowed to interpret scripture with the desire that it be done with the aid of the Holy Spirit, are the interpretations of a person who makes little effort to study all of the nuances and styles or forms of writing, equal to a Scripture scholar who spends countless hours in prayer to the Holy Spirit and to Christ and to His Father in an effort to discern correctly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?”
The Pharisees were in that same position, weren’t they? Who knew the law or God’s word better than them? They could recite the bible both forward AND backward by memory, and yet we all know where that led them. Jesus said to them, ““You do not know me or my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
So don’t think for a second because you study the bible, that makes you an authority on all things True. It’s surely possible that a scholar can lack the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as showcased above, and he who knows nothing of the world can be full of the Holy Spirit. We can’t assume that because someone is a scholar that they automatically have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
But let’s say they’re not equal – surely not being equal doesn’t, again, —automatically— make what the scholar says infallible. I would hope you would agree? Having a PHD might help you understand where Jesus was on a Wednesday, but it won’t explain to you what He meant when He was speaking on that day. You can’t interpret spiritual matter using fleshly things – using things (PHD/worldly knowledge) attained by man.
10.) You say, “Does not Scripture state that God loves a humble heart?”
What does this have to do with anything?
Anna, you say “it’s okay for the Pope to bown down” and directly after that you provide Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV??? Please make sense of this.
Anthony stated:
“If you think about it, even JESUS never called her “mother,” yet the Catholic church concludes that she is the “mother of all souls.”
For nearly 33 years our Lord lived with and was raised by His mother Mary, are you stating that you know for a fact that all through His childhood he only referred to her as woman? Are you attempting to argue that because on a few occasions the scriptures quote our Lord as using the tern Woman, he never once called her mother? I doubt any scripture scholar, Protestant, Catholic or Jewish would make that statement and be able to successfully defend it.
Here is something to consider; in the history of mankind, exactly how many virgins were overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and carried the Son of God in her womb? Did Mary have free will or did God make her bear His Son? Do you think Mary was simply a random pick and just like any sinner and therefore the son of God entered the womb of a sinner? Where in the bible would that thinking be supported?
When you quote the Old Testament regarding graven images you are talking about a time in history when those images were looked upon as some sort of god, a pagan practice that the Jews
were instructed never to worship. The images of Mary and other Saints, be it statues, paintings, medals or what have you, are not worshipped and they are not thought of as representing God; I don’t know why you can’t differentiate between something that is used to call a person to mind, like you would a painting or photograph of a loved one, and an image that is worshipped as if it were a god. They are two entirely different purposes and non Catholics are making false assumptions in this regard.
I can no better prove that Mary holds the highest place in Heaven of all created beings than you can prove she doesn’t. Some matters simply must be taken on faith. But a careful understanding of the entire Bible, or put another way, taken in it’s entire context, appears to support the catholic teachings on Mary. The Bible doesn’t state that God entered the womb of a sinless woman but do you really believe He who was without sin entered a sinful womb? My point is that some matters of faith are implicit and some are explicit. And that brings me to interpretation.
If one may only believe those things explicitly stated by our Lord how does one reconcile John’s words in chapter six, the latter verses, in which our Lord stated with a double amen, amen I say to you, if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you? And as you continue to read the following verses, you discover that many disciples rejected His words and His disciples commented that they were difficult to hear and what was our Lord’s response? Did he say, I was just speaking in parables? Did he say to those who were leaving, come back, you misunderstood me? Did He tell His Apostles that they didn’t need to follow this teaching? No He did not! The teaching stands. It stood then and it stands now and cannot be successfully explained away unless you somehow agree to say such a thing is implied by the fact that it’s not possible to eat His flesh or drink His blood. But then you need to explain away the last supper.
The Bible explicitly states that ” All generations will call me Blessed” in our Blessed Mother’s magnificat; when was the last time you referred to her as blessed?
Lastly, you ask the question, what does the Pope having a humble heart have to do with anything? The Pope as successor to Peter, is the servant of God just as Peter was shown and taught by our Lord Himself at the last supper, as told in John’s Gospel. God Himself in the incarnation, exhibited the greatest display of humility possible, He entered His own creation. Christ, at the last supper washed the feet of His apostles, an act of humility beyond the understanding of His chosen apostles but explicitly required by Christ if they expected to be His
Church on earth. Servants are both obedient and submissive in the proper context. The Pope knows that when he kneels down in front of an image of Mary he is humbly requesting that as the Mother of Christ, she hear his prayers and present them to her Son, for the good of His Church. Yes, he could pray directly to God but out of respect of her honored position and the trust that he has in her intercessory position, he honors God by honoring the one woman, chosen from all creation, to bring into this world the Messiah.
We will need to agree to disagree on these matters and that’s unfortunate but the schism that took place in the 16th century may never be rectified prior to our Lord’s second coming.
I will however ask again but in slightly different words, if you were one of the Christians who were baptized in the days or weeks or months following our Lord’s death and resurrection, how would you have known God’s will without the use of the Bible which didn’t exist? If the Bible is truly the only authority in matters of faith and morals, why didn’t our Lord have scribes writing down His every word and then establish the canon Himself before leaving earth?
Romans 1:18-25 NLT
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
I touched specifically on many things you said, and you answer ONLY my last question. Why? What I asked was in need of your attention and response. Why overlook what I ask of you to answer? Are my questions not important to you? Or do you not have an answer to some or all of them?
1.) You asked, “Are you attempting to argue that because on a few occasions the scriptures quote our Lord as using the tern Woman, he never once called her mother?”
Not only that, but show me one place where he actually DID call her “mother.” You can’t.
But what I’d really like to call your attention to is this: He didn’t refer to her as a “mother” when He was an adult – when He was fulfilling the reason for being sent to earth.
Also, which is of equal importance, calling your mother “woman” is a sign of disrespect, and thus why I don’t believe He considered Mary His mother. No one would call their mother “woman” – not me, not you, nor Jesus if He TRULY considered her His mother. But Jesus was GOD and God KNOWS that He does NOT have a MOTHER.
Show me ANYWHERE, in ANY book, where ANY religious CHILD called his OWN mother (not just ANY random lady) a “woman.” Give me ONE single exmaple. JUST ONE!
2.) You ask, “Do you think Mary was simply a random pick and just like any sinner and therefore the son of God entered the womb of a sinner?”
No, of course not. Stop assuming. Of course she was a blessed woman, but try to understand that she should not be placed in an equal position to God and thus should not be bowed down to. THAT is ALL I am trying to get across to you or any anyone else reading this.
3.) “When you quote the Old Testament regarding graven images you are talking about a time in history when those images were looked upon as some sort of god, a pagan practice that the Jewswere instructed never to worship. The images of Mary and other Saints, be it statues, paintings, medals or what have you, are not worshipped and they are not thought of as representing God;”
And? Why can’t the same apply in this day and age? If you say that Mary is in Heaven, and exodus CLEARLY tells us not to “make” for ourselves an image in the form of ANYTHING in HEAVEN, and NOT to BOW DOWN to said image, then are you not breaking that command by bowing DOWN to Mary, who is IN heaven?
4.) You say, “I don’t know why you can’t differentiate between something that is used to call a person to mind, like you would a painting or photograph of a loved one, and an image that is worshipped as if it were a god.”
Please don’t compare the Pope bowing down to a statue to even a PICTURE of Mary. No one bows down to pictures, as they are used as a means of remembrance. There is a difference.
5.) You say, “I can no better prove that Mary holds the highest place in Heaven of all created beings than you can prove she doesn’t.”
YOU make the claim, so YOU have the burden of proof. But anyway, even if what you say was the case, then ANYONE can say ANYTHING (regardless of whether or not it’s in the bible) and then claim that such a thing is true because another person can’t disprove it. It’s a very, very, very weak argument at BEST.
6.) You say, “But a careful understanding of the entire Bible, or put another way, taken in it’s entire context, appears to support the catholic teachings on Mary.”
“Appears.” Yes, you look through a distorted lens and what you see, you claim to be Truth. Yet you can’t answer any of my questions and can’t provide a single passage supporting what you say. If it was so “clear” what you speak, then you would at the very least -attempt- to show me using scripture how truly clear it really is, but instead what you do is graciously back out of this argument using the “let’s agree to disagree” comment.
7.) You say, “The Bible doesn’t state that God entered the womb of a sinless woman but do you really believe He who was without sin entered a sinful womb?”
Again, WHO mentioned ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, about Mary being sinful? You answer almost NONE of my questions, but what you do is the same thing the Catholic church does almost ALL too well: ASSUME! You ASSUME that I think of Mary as NOT being blessed, when I haven’t implied NOR said such a thing even ONCE. It is written that she was a, “highly favored” woman: Luke 1:28. So now you can hopefully tune in on where I’m going with all of this, instead of diving head first into that which does NOT exist.
8.) You say, “The Bible explicitly states that ” All generations will call me Blessed” in our Blessed Mother’s magnificat; when was the last time you referred to her as blessed?”
You are confused. Me not placing her in the SAME position as God, or placing her, “right BENEATH the position of God”, does not in ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM imply that I do NOT think she was blessed. But MANY people were blessed – surely, though, being blessed is not enough to place you in a position right beneath God or in a position of worship.
9.) You say, “The Pope knows that when he kneels down in front of an image of Mary he is humbly requesting that as the Mother of Christ, she hear his prayers and present them to her Son, for the good of His Church. Yes, he could pray directly to God but out of respect of her honored position and the trust that he has in her intercessory position, he honors God by honoring the one woman, chosen from all creation, to bring into this world the Messiah.”
This is where we will have to agree to disagree. No one is to be bowed down to. NO ONE, but God. You can write a books worth of excuses as to WHY the Pope does things he should NOT do, but surely it doesn’t make it right.
Sorry Antony.. I meant the guy who says it’s okay to bow to a statue of mary.. Yet one of the commandments is so clear there.. What bible are they getting it from? Trying to do away with God’s law? One person tried that.. It was lucifer.
Antony I like your arguments, it took alot of praying and starting to really study the bible that got me to knowing and learning the truth, having believed in the catholic doctrines for years.. I pray I will get more of them to know the truth.
As long as we are pointing out those things that I avoided addressing, maybe we should go back to the beginning and consider why you avoided speaking to the reality that the bible didn’t exist at the earliest moments of Christianity but the Apostles did and that is where our Lord placed the authority to baptize and teach His truth. The FIRST and lasting authority is Apostolic, from which the new testament came into being through the Holy Spirit which came upon them at Pentecost.
You also cherry picked those points you wanted to expound on in this latest post and chose not to address John’s discourse on the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I guess we are both guilty of the same actions.
Just so you too are clear, Mary is a created being and in no way above that stature. She is not God and is not to be thought of as more than a HIGHLY FAVORED & BLESSED BEING.
All of your arguments come from individual verses of scripture, taken out of context for the purpose of proving a point but ignore major realities such as Apostolic tradition and the authority our Lord gave to Peter and His Apostles.
This is a circular argument that will accomplish little but to allow each of us to defend our positions regarding our beliefs. I’m in communion with the Church I trust was founded by our Lord while on earth and confirmed by the Holy Spirit and you’re not, so our beliefs must differ.
You believe that the bible is the sole authority, even though there is nothing stated explicitly in the bible to support that position. Since I believe that the Pope is the current successor to Peter and the appointed supreme authority on matters of faith and morals, I trust that when he kneels down and prays in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin, he is in no way substituting her for God.
The Catholic understanding of Mary as taken from scripture varies so dramatically from Protestant thought that no meeting of the minds is possible.
The three pillars of Catholic faith are Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Chair of Peter, to whom was given the ” Keys to the Kingdom”. You believe in the single pillar of Sacred Scripture alone. It had to be that way in order for Luther to distance himself from the Catholic Church. The people of the 16th century who were dissatisfied with the papacy and the teaching authority of that time, would have had it no other way.
Their dislike or even hatred permitted them to accept as Truth, the teachings of one man over the teachings of numerous councils dating back to the Apostles. Examining the two positions I choose to side with what I trust is the continuation of that which our Lord founded upon his handpicked nucleus.
Both positions possess the Truth but in varying degrees and I trust and believe that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of that Truth, you do not and likely never will and for God’s own purpose, that has been permitted to happen.
I truly wish you every spiritual blessing and a safe journey home to our God. We may be taking different routes but hopefully, God’s Mercy will allow for each of us to spend eternity in His Presence. I trust and pray He will.
May God bless you and your family this glorious Advent Season and may the remembrance of His Sacred Birth help to bring you joy and peace.
This time, you chose to answer NONE of my questions. I wonder why. You make claims that you say are so very “clear”, and yet even though they’re as “clear” as day to you, you choose not to further elaborate on these so-called “truths” and explain in detail to the rest of us using scripture why you believe the things you do. Could it be because you have NO answers and that you simply, like an automaton, recite what has been ingrained in your mind by the Pope as being “true?”
You see, many people can say many things, but when confronted about such things, many back down. Such was the case with you. You did not touch 99.9% of my questions pertaining to claims YOU placed on the table, that YOU said are very “clear”, and you expect me or other Christians to take what you say seriously? You’re probably use to people nodding their head in agreement to everything that comes from your mouth, not having it in them to question the things you say. Well, when your actions (or actions you AGREE with) are in CLEAR opposition to what APOSTLES did, and what scripture SAYS, regardless of whether or not what you do is actually written IN the bible, I have to question YOUR leader and I also have to question YOUR belief system. It’s ONE thing to do something that -isn’t- written in the bible, you see, THAT would be up for debate. But it’s a WHOLE ‘NOTHER STORY when what you do, and what you try to pass off as being “okay”, is SHOWN IN DETAIL as NOT being “okay” in the bible.
If your leader bows DOWN in front of a statue, something Peter (a man we —ALL— AGREE had the Holy Spirit within him) FROWNED upon anyone doing when it came to anyone or thing BUT God, can we not conclude that the Pope does NOT have Holy Spirit within him? If the Holy Spirit was, in fact, within the Pope, would It not urge the Pope to STAND UP, the way Peter made that man STAND UP? Yes, of COURSE It would. Peter was operating from a place of Truth, apparently the same can’t be said about the Pope.
I mean it would be one thing if he (the Pope) only affected himself with such beliefs, but clearly that’s not the case. He affects the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people following him, because they BELIEVE (just like YOU believe) that what he does is what is noble and true. Well we saw clearly in Luke what the Truth that was WITHIN Peter caused Peter to do, didn’t we? You can’t say, “no!” It’s as CLEAR as DAY that It (the Holy Spirit within Peter) did not for a SECOND (not a SINGLE second) allow a man to follow through with an act meant ONLY for God. THAT, my friend, is TRUTH! If Peter did not allow a man to bow down to him, how could you POSSIBLY think he, HIMSELF, if he were here today, would bow down to a plastic IMAGE of a woman? And you say that the Pope is today’s Peter? WAKE UP!!!
What comes from your mouth is false testimony which has been ingrained in your in your heart as being “true” by those who originally spread these false doctrines. What you say doesn’t come from a place of deep contemplation and prayer on scripture, but rather comes because, as you basically say, the Pope “says it’s truth, so then it MUST be.”
Matthew 23:13:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”
Woe to any person or persons or churches who follow suit, for instead of glorifying the Father, you glorify man. Instead of glorifying His word / His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, you glorify man. You make songs about MAN. Bring attention to MAN. Speak about and think about MAN. How about you REPENT from your ways and shine your light on HE who shines His light on you FIRST – bring the spot light BACK on HIM, and AWAY from MAN, as even MARY would suggest you do if she was here in flesh today. Again, this is not HER fault, but YOURS and the Catholic church’s fault for placing her (and Saints) in a higher position or an equal position to God and telling everyone that such a thing is “okay” to do. You, yourselves, are in opposition to what the bible teaches, and now you cause those with earnest hearts wanting to find Truth to wander down a path that was not intended for them wander, which is away from the Light.
1.) You say, “Just so you too are clear, Mary is a created being and in no way above that stature. She is not God and is not to be thought of as more than a HIGHLY FAVORED & BLESSED BEING.”
How many times do I need to say things for you to register them? I’m not speaking to you in real life, so you can’t miss what I say. I don’t get why I need to repeat myself, as if you look up, you’ll see what I’ve written above. Read what I write and understand what I am trying to relay to you. Simply put: I don’t CARE what you SAY, I care WHAT YOU DO. So stop telling me you place God first, when it’s obvious (not by your WORDS) but by your ACTIONS that you do NOT place God first. Your actions point to everyone BUT God. i.e.: Mary, the Saints, etc., while God is there, He is not at the forefront, at His RIGHTFUL position in our hearts and minds. Matthew 22:37
2.) You say, “I’m in communion with the Church I trust was founded by our Lord while on earth and confirmed by the Holy Spirit and you’re not, so our beliefs must differ.”
What needs to take place before you realize that something is wrong? Does the Pope literally have to utter the words, “Mary, OUR GOD” before you say, “Hey, something’s not right here?” I’d bet that even if the Pope DID say such a thing, you would find some ridiculous excuse (as you’ve done with the whole kneeling argument) as to why it’s “okay.” I mean seriously! Satan will not send you a greeting card informing you of WHO he is, all the while kindly warning you that he’s pulling the cover over your eyes. You have to pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you and to open your eyes to that which is True.
You say, “have you ever called Mary blessed?” Well let me ask YOU a question of —actual— importance – as mentioning whether or not Mary is blessed is of NO importance to US —nor— our salvation (as you previously stated): have you ever been in deep prayer BEGGING He which is FORMLESS to indwell you with the Holy Spirit? Have you EVER cared MORE about your eyes being open than what your next meal will be? Have you ever pleaded and cried out to God to show you ONLY that which is true? Or is all your time spent —listening— to a man tell you what he thinks is true? Do you actually have a deep, internal desire to find Truth, or are you speaking from an intellectual stand-point and reciting with your mouth words that don’t truly move your heart?
[I KNOW YOU WON'T, BUT ---PLEASE--- ANSWER THIS QUESTION]You put your trust in a church because it holds an apostolic title. But what you fail to realize is that man is not infallible. Satan at one point in time held the HIGHEST order ever given to an Angel – he was given things no human could ever DREAM of having, and even —he—, having FREE WILL, chose to go AGAINST God and follow EVIL WAYS.
So I ask you: WHY THEN, can the POPE, or his predecessors, being of the FLESH, and not of the SPIRIT, like LUCIFER, not be capable of swaying from the ultimate Truth and essentially guiding an ENTIRE nation into damnation? Why? Why is that NOT possible? Is the Pope and the Catholic church infallible? Does the Pope (or his predecessors) NOT have free will to choose NOT to accept God’s will – whether intentionally or not? Is he like Jesus? Perfect? In other words, he can ONLY do the will of God? Or is he NOT God, and actually IS capable of turning AWAY from the ORIGINAL apostolic teachings?[I KNOW YOU WON'T, BUT ---PLEASE--- ANSWER THIS QUESTION]
3.) You say, “You believe that the bible is the sole authority…”
What I believe is that it is ENOUGH to make us into what we need to be (2 Timothy 3:16-17): “…PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
ALL Scripture is God-breathed (again, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Isaiah 8:20 states: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak NOT according to this word, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM.” So you see, you speak NOT according to the GOD-BREATHED Word contained within the bible, so the bible says that you have NO light within you, and that would mean you are in DARKNESS. You cannot SEE when you are in the DARK, and thus why you cannot SEE what is being stated to you today. So keep following man’s tradition and keep denying the inspired word of God and see where that leads you.
4.) You say, “Since I believe that the Pope is the current successor to Peter and the appointed supreme authority on matters of faith and morals.”
There’s a WIDE gap of time from the time of Peter to the time of the current Pope. Please refer to question #2 above.
5.) You say, “I trust that when he kneels down and prays in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin, he is in no way substituting her for God.”
You fail to realize that it does not MATTER whether or not he is substituting her for God. Simply put: the action is meant for God ONLY! Why is that so hard to comprehend????
Also, you think it’s simply about INTENTION? It doesn’t matter WHAT you do, as long as your heart is in the right place? If bowing down is something we should do for God ONLY, as Peter showcased in Luke, then as long as a man falls to the feet of a statue or to the feet of a man and has GOOD intentions, then all is good? Do you HONESTLY think that man that fell to Pete’s feet was substituting Peter for GOD? C’MON!!! Of COURSE he wasn’t. But Peter STILL made him STAND UP!
Such a way of thinking is why there are forty million interpretations of the bible – it’s such a slippery slope to go against what is RIGHT and TRUE.
I’m reminded of a quote from Nikos Kazantzakis:
“I say one thing, you write another, and those who read you understand still something else!”
The whole bowing DOWN to a statue of Mary thing will be MISUNDERSTOOD by THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of people following the Pope. He does ONE thing, and others take it as meaning something COMPLETELY different. It’s one thing if people don’t “get” Truth when Truth is ACTUALLY spoken or ACTED OUT, but to speak or act out falsehood, all the while misguiding people, now that is a totally different ball game.
6.) You say, “…the bible didn’t exist at the earliest moments of Christianity but the Apostles did and that is where our Lord placed the authority to baptize and teach His truth.”
God surely understands men. There is a REASON why the bible was written and why it is INSPIRED and GOD-BREATHED (2 Timothy 3:16-17). IF man was capable of relaying all that God wanted, WHY then would we have a NEED for the Word to be DOCUMENTED on PAPER? Tell me! Why? I’ll tell you why: We would have —NO REASON— for a BOOK if man was FULLY capable of relaying such information WITHOUT wavering. You see, God KNOWS that man is easily swayed from Truth. So would it be wise for God to COMPLETELY entrust His word and what He wanted us to know ONLY in the hands of men, ONLY via word of mouth? No, of course not. People will ALWAYS turn away from God, I would think that’s fairly obvious.
So I ask you: Is looking upon that which the fallible Pope (a MAN) does as being 100% truth a wise decision on YOUR part? Is he (or his predecessors) INCAPABLE of SWAYING from the ORIGINAL teachings of the early apostolic church? Now that I answered the ONE question I didn’t answer before, let’s see if you’ll finally answer the SEVERAL questions that I asked you earlier that you did not answer, and the questions I asked above.
Oh, boy. How did I miss this doozy:
“the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of that Truth, you do not and likely never will and for God’s own purpose, that has been permitted to happen..”
To know what is “likely” to come – could this man possibly be a prophet? Or is it more likely that, when someone gets called out in a debate, and they fail to prove that which was asked of them, they resort to claims that the other person doesn’t have the “truth” within them, because their ego has been bruised. Hmmm…I wonder if that’s what happened.
How about this: instead of telling me I don’t have Truth within me, why don’t you PROVE such is the case? You haven’t done that. Your full of completely empty claims. Can you do what you have not done thus far and ATTEMPT to prove at least ONE of the things you claim?
Wow Anthony you are a douche, you only see things one way and that is YOUR way… You bend the scriptures to conform to your arguments. Any one can take one verse out of the bible and use it for what they want it to say or need it to say, period. Why argue? Just because you think one way is wrong does not mean that it is wrong to others nor will you sway their beliefs because of your holier-than-thou EGO. We all say praise to the same God so please spare the self righteous attitude and be thankful that people still go to the Lord for guidence in this day and age. God forgive me, and may God forgive you for being a douche bag. Amen
Ann, you’ve added nothing of intelligence to this debate besides acting like a 10-year-old. Do you have any valid reasons for saying the things you say, or are you lashing out because everything you’ve ever been told and believed is being exposed as a LIE?
“you only see things one way”
Yes, the Lord’s way.
“We all say praise to the same God”
Unfortunately for you, no, “we” don’t! You say praises to Mary. You PRAY to Mary and then TELL people (like JOHN did above) that you say praises to God. Truth be told, MARY is your God. Mary is your JESUS. This is proven by -many- things that Catholics do, such as the bowing and other things, including what John said above:
“Mary is WITHOUT sin.”
How do you make any sense of that?
“You bend the scriptures to conform to your arguments.”
So when I place “Mary is WITHOUT sin” next to Matthew where Jesus says, “There is only ONE who is good,” that means I’m twisting scripture? If there is only ONE that is good, and without SIN (implying GOD), and you say, “MARY is without sin”, am I twisting scripture when saying that MARY is your God?
When even Mary HERSELF called God her Savior in Luke (“my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, “), what exactly did He save Mary from? Why was she in need of a savior in the first place if she was without sin? You can be blessed, and STILL a sinner. God can indwell a sinner – such is the case with many of us. Why don’t you crack the bible open from time to time and see the contradictions for yourself? You won’t do that, but you’ll sit back comfortably in your computer chair and hurl insults at people being CONVICTED of things you know VERY little about.
“be thankful that people still go to the Lord for guidence in this day and age”
Be thankful? How deluded a woman could you possibly be? Is anyone doing ME a favor by following the Lord? Are you doing the LORD a favor by following Him? You do NO ONE but YOURSELVES a service when you follow Truth. Wake up! Your righteousness and your sin affect only humans like YOURSELVES!!!
Oh Lord have mercy! This has resulted to name calling!
Anthony, Matthew 5:10-12 NKJV
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Be blessed Anthony, Rejoice! I hope you realise that the verses quoted are what’s happening to you. .
Thank you, Anna. May our Lord bless you, as well.
John 5:39-44 NLT
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
“Your approval means nothing to me, because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.
The scripture points to JESUS, while CATHOLICS point to MARY. Don’t disvalue Scripture in your attempt at a straw-man argument, Josh. That verse has nothing to do with what we’re speaking of.
Romans 5:1 NLT
Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
Josh, I’m sorry. I confused you for someone else. Thank you for sharing.
or how would you explain..Hebrews 11:1-40 NLT
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation.
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.
It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.
It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith.
It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.
It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.
All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.
It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau.
It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.
It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left.
It was by faith that Moses’ parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s command.
It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to share the oppression of God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.
It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.
It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.
It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. Women received their loved ones back again from death.
But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.
All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.
Luke 7:43-50 NLT
Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.”
“That’s right,” Jesus said. Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn’t offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You didn’t greet me with a kiss, but from the time I first came in, she has not stopped kissing my feet. You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume.
“I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love.” Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The men at the table said among themselves, “Who is this man, that goes around forgiving sins?”
And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
or how would you explain the countless stories in the many stories as well….
in the gospels¤
Hebrews 13:8 NLT
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Josh,
I’m by no means an authority here – neither a moderator nor am I in charge of this conversation by any means, and although I can appreciate your effort, I must ask you this as a friend: can you please stick to the subject at hand? I say this only so that we don’t fill this page with quotes that are of no relevance to what we’re specifically debating above. If you have a point, and would like to help by contributing to the topic, please tell us what that point is instead of posting (what seems to be) random quotes from the bible.
Thanks,
-A
Basic Christianity teaches that people in heaven are alive, not dead.
Jesus is our one and only mediator. Intercession is different.
“Teach us how to pray,” the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1)
Jesus answered by teaching them the prayer we call the Our Father or The Lord’s Prayer.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give US this day OUR daily bread.
Forgive US OUR trespasses,
as WE forgive those who trespass against US.
And lead US not into temptation,
but deliver US from evil.
The entire second part of the Lord’s prayer is intercessory prayer where we pray for ourselves and others (us, we, and our).
Christians praying for each other and the world is intercessory prayer and is accepted and practiced by all Christan denominations (that I know about).
Before Jesus Christ died for our sins and opened the gates of heaven there were no saints in heaven. Therefore there are no Old Testament writings that would mention them.
Very few of the new Christians died before most of the New Testament was written. Therefore there is little in the Bible about asking saints to pray for us.
However the last book of the Bible does talk about the saints in heaven praying.
Revelation 5:8: Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Revelation 8:3-4: He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
The Holy Spirit guided the early Church in many things not explained in the Bible including how does the Body of Christ (believers) living on Earth relate to the Body of Christ (saints) living in heaven. We are still one Body.
Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.
The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.
Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.
As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.
Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.
Asking others to pray for you whether your loved ones on Earth or your loved ones in heaven is always optional.
For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 946 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1s…
With love in Christ.
REFERENCE: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100521201122AATAuSE
Dear Brothers & Sisters, please delve into the Holy Word of God, and consider what our Lord Jesus said in rebuking the devil when being tempted by him to turn the stone into bread: “It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD.” (Matthew 4:4) Jesus Christ drew from the Scriptures in Deuteronomy 8:3 to combat Satan in this instance. The emphasis here is manifold especially when one realizes the spiritual symbolism and parabolic imagery associated with our Lord’s words. However, this is not my point. My point is in the literal sense in which Jesus reiterates those words spoken to the Israelites after being led out of Egypt and given God’s Law. As such the emphasis is on EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God. If you are truly reborn in Jesus our Christ then you must accept the Holy Bible as the inadvertant Truth, unadulterated, inerrant Word of God (not going to get into various translations b/c gets too deep in the weeds; plus you have to rely on the guidance and counsel of the Spirit of Christ to lead you through such decisions as to which, if any, of the various versions of God’s Word have been diluted to the point of no longer being the Word of God that we are required to believe as Truth).
At any rate, you should not pray to dead saints for many reasons not the least of which is because they are DEAD! Or, as our Lord stated during his ministry when referring to someone who had died: “She is only sleeping.” A dead or “sleeping” saint who is in Christ enters into the Kingdom of God at the coming of Christ. Until then, they ‘sleep’, have no conciousness, and most certainly are NOT in heaven. You cannot find anywhere in the Word of God that says you go to heaven immediately after you die. That’s because it is NOT there. The soul returns to God, yes, but the soul apart from the body has no conciousness. This is why Paul says all of creation travails until the coming of Christ to learn who we are, who the sons (and daughters) of God truly are. The belief that our dearly departed are in heaven looking down upon us is false and a lie of our enemy. It came from false teachings and traditions of man…not God.
If you believe this then you do not accurately believe in the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming unto complete salvation and unto the new glorified body…just as it was with our Lord Jesus when God raised Him 3 days after His crucifixion. Therefore, you will be lost either to the second resurrection which occurs after the Millennial (1000 year) Reign on earth of Jesus Christ or lost forever. You cannot experience that which you do not believe in! That’s the whole basis of “Christ in us – the hope of glory”. This is the theme of the entire Bible! But it’s best explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Also see Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:29) in this verse he clearly states that king David is still dead in his grave waiting for the resurrection of the dead unto Christ…King David nor anyone else have yet to arrive in heaven or the Kingdom of God our Father.
So, are you saying we shouldn’t talk to the dead? What happens if this is done?
God jesus and the holy spirit is one I know according to the bible that praying to the saints is wrong cuz it say I am the way the truth and the light no man commeth to the father but thru me the bible is talking about jesus I read one comment saying that diffrent people interpet the scriptures diffrently that is true but if it contridicts the word of god then it is not from the holy spirit but of the world I believe that cathlics shouldnt be labled as christians becuz they pray to the saints for example there are sum religions that belive in jesus but that doesnt make them christian what makes them christian is that they follow the teachings of jesus and have a personal relationship with him that is where the catholics are lacking if they had a personal relationship with jesus and was lead by the holy spirit they would know that praying to the saints is wrong cuz jesus God and the holy spirit are one and the same and if jesus says to pray to him why are people praying to the saints it is becuz they were not lead by the holy spirit becuz the holy spirit is one with God why would the holy spirit say pray to the saints and jesus says to pray to him it doesnt make sense cuz jesus and god and the holy spirit are one the same that is why it is important to check with the word of God and if it contridicts the word it is not from god it is from the world or a lie of satan hopes this helps I hope it helps me too im only 18 and not livin right right now if u can pray for me that be great I need it
Corey says:
January 13, 2012 at 9:03 pm
God jesus and the holy spirit is one I know according to the bible that praying to the saints is wrong cuz it say I am the way the truth and the light no man commeth to the father but thru me the bible is talking about jesus I read one comment saying that diffrent people interpet the scriptures diffrently that is true but if it contridicts the word of god then it is not from the holy spirit but of the world I believe that cathlics shouldnt be labled as christians becuz they pray to the saints for example there are sum religions that belive in jesus but that doesnt make them christian what makes them christian is that they follow the teachings of jesus and have a personal relationship with him that is where the catholics are lacking if they had a personal relationship with jesus and was lead by the holy spirit they would know that praying to the saints is wrong cuz jesus God and the holy spirit are one and the same and if jesus says to pray to him why are people praying to the saints it is becuz they were not lead by the holy spirit becuz the holy spirit is one with God why would the holy spirit say pray to the saints and jesus says to pray to him it doesnt make sense cuz jesus and god and the holy spirit are one the same that is why it is important to check with the word of God and if it contridicts the word it is not from god it is from the world or a lie of satan hopes this helps I hope it helps me too im only 18 and not livin right right now if u can pray for me that be great I need it ( End of quote )
Corey, lots to think about here!
In John’s Gospel, chapter 6, versus 48-59 are explicit words that inform all who will listen and believe, that Jesus’ Flesh and Blood are to be consumed by His followers. Many of the disciples who heard these words could not accept them and left but when he turned to His Apostles and asked them if they too wanted to leave, it was Peter who said ” to whom should we turn, you have the words of eternal life”?
Jesus didn’t say to those who did leave, wait, you misunderstood me and he didn’t say he was speaking in a parable and then explain the real meaning. Christ said what He meant and meant what He said, and it is true for every generation.
So how is it possible for any of us to eat our Lord’s Flesh and drink His Blood when he hasn’t been physically present for 2,000 years? The answer to that is found in the Gospels when they describe the last supper, in which our Lord instructed the Apostles on how to bring about this miracle by saying the words He said and by the power and authority he gave to each of them.
From the time of the Apostles and continuing until the end of time, those men who have been ordained by a Bishop who himself was ordained by a Bishop in a line of succession going back to the original 12 less Judas Iscariot, have the authority and power to transubstantiate ( change )
bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in exactly the same manner our Lord did at His last supper.
And so this morning at Mass, I received the Body and Blood of Christ, as I do nearly every day I’m not required to work early. It’s hard to imagine a more personal relationship than that.
Corey, reread John’s Gospel, chapter 6 in it’s entirety and see if the Holy Spirit won’t help you to come to an understanding of how important our Lord’s instruction is regarding the miracle of the changing of bread and wine into our Lord’s Body and Blood.
Actually, the first miracle at Cana and the feeding of the multitudes also point to and are miracles leading up to the possibility that the entire world could be nourished spiritually by His Body and Blood, every day until our Lord comes again.
In the Catholic Church we have an authority to determine when error is being professed as truth, it’s the men who succeeded Peter and the Apostles. If you study closely the Acts of the Apostles you will note that when heresy ( false doctrines ) were being spread about to the newly baptized Christians, it was the Apostles and their successors who, with the authority given them by Jesus, rejected some teachings as false and professed others as being true.
Until the 16th century and Martin Luther’s break away from the Catholic Church, this authority to teach the Truth regarding Christ’s life and teachings, was never in question. In his break from the Church it was Luther who made the determination that the bible was the sole authority in matters of faith and morals, but who gave Luther the authority to make such a claim? Were you aware that Martin Luther was an Augustinian priest in the Catholic Church and when his pleas for reform within the Church was rejected by the Pope and their personal differences led to Luther being excommunicated, he formulated his own doctrines?
Were you also aware that during the time of our Lord and Savior, there were two sacred canons
( list of books considered inspired and revealed by God through His prophets ) for the Jews?
The one canon was being used was in Hebrew and the other in Greek. Scripture scholars acknowledge that most of the quotes attributed to having been made by Jesus, are from the septuagint, which contained and still contain the books that Protestants refer to as apocryphal but Catholics and Eastern Orthodox term dutero canonical ( which should be translated as an additional list or second list but not in any way uninspired or revealed by God ). In these books, you will read about praying for the dead; the First and Second Maccabees are the best example.
In this canon they are listed under historical books.
The question one must ask oneself is why our Lord quoted so often from the canon accepted by the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches but rejected by the Protestant Church and the Jews who rejected Christ then and reject Him now? Unless it was helpful in promoting the doctrines that one group wanted to use to distance that group from the teachings of the Apostles and their successors.
You do realize that it was the Apostles who wrote most of the New Testament and their successors or disciples if you will. And it was this group of priests, with the successor to Peter as their head, that actually created the canon of scriptures and for nearly twelve centuries went unchallenged until Luther and likeminded Christians broke away from the Church our Lord founded and Blessed before His death and resurrection and the subsequent coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and our Blessed Mother at Pentecost.
Lastly, don’t you find it peculiar that within the bible itself, there is no explicit statement saying that the bible is the sole authority but the scriptures themselves are explicit when we hear the words of our Lord when he gave authority to the Apostles to bind and loose sin and to Peter when our Lord handed him the keys to the kingdom and that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church our Lord founded and handed to Peter and his successors, ever!
As far as your belief that Catholics do not have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, you should not believe everything you hear; I’m Catholic and my relationship with our Lord is very personal, after all, it was through His life, death and resurrection that I have the possibility of eternal bliss in His Presence and that of His Father, the Holy Spirit and all of the Angels and Saints who continuously sing His praise. You might very well be shocked to discover that great numbers of Catholics have a very deep, profound and personal relationship with the Most Holy Name of Jesus Christ.
May God bless you in every way possible, may he protect you and your family, always, and may you live in the Truth.
John
I am Catholic, but I don’t go to church every sunday. Most people there are not worshipping in truth but I’m not telling all. Instead of hearing the teachings of priests in the church, I study by my own reading God’s words everyday and listening to any Christian religions’ devotions. The religion is not important to me as long as I am Christian and I follow Christ Jesus teachings. Kneeling down to any statues, images or even inside in the church makes me feel nervous or uncomfortable even though my focus is God. Coz I believe that God is everywhere and omnipresent. I realized it’s not right to celebrate Christmas coz it was not stated in the bible the date of Jesus’ birth. But Jesus is already a God and not anymr a human.
“2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
Jesus came to the Earth to give SIGHT to those who cannot see and not to give peace but the sword, -that simply means we should not be blind, the knowlege of his teachings is the sword to give us sight. I hope I did not offend any Catholics here but I wanna say that it’s not right to pray to the Saints or ask them to pray to us. Talking about the statues like the Black Nazarene, Sto. Nino and etc giving us a lot of miracles might be done only by Satan. Satan mybe is happy that we worship them so he makes a lot of miracles for us to continue worshipping them. We can never say that Christ is living in the statue that whoever will touch the statue will be healed. He didn’t say these things. Christ is around. And about Paul, many of his teachings are contradict to Jesus’, so who should we follow, ofcourse our God Jesus. Do not be deceived. Faith is the most important but contradicting God’s words might offend Him and can be considered sins in His eyes
Ofcourse God’s love is unfailing and even if we’re sinners His love for us never fails. If we draw near to Him, He’ll draw near to us and if we seek Him, we shall find. That are His promises right? But that doesn’t mean we wont listen to His words like do not commit idolatry. This is sin, we know that. Praying to the statues, dead saints or whatever that contradict His words- are wrong. God is patient for our sake so maybe he’s waiting for us to stop all these things. Let’s not argue about this, iit’s up to them who’s teachings they’ll believe. We will know in God’s judgment.
dear bro.anthony,it is really great with so much of knowledge on bible with your own misinterpretations. we are no one to talk about mother mary since lord
has chosen her to be the mother of jesus. Further pl. note that your name is of a dead saint.God bless you.
Deselva, thank you for the blessings, same to you, but it is you that has misunderstood, not me. But just to place it on the table, tell me: what is it that I misunderstand?
Also, when you say “talk about”, what does that mean exactly? Surely you don’t mean when I speak of how God is the only One without sin? Is that what I’ve misinterpreted? When the bible says there is only “One that is good”, does it really means “two?” It isn’t when I say that Jesus is the Truth and the Way and the Light, and not Mary and that it’s through Jesus that we are saved, not through Mary. Is that what you say I have misinterpreted? If so, please explain how I’ve misinterpreted such a thing.
When you agree that your salvation is through Mary, and I direct the attention to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, of which our salvation is to come through, you take that to mean what exactly? You assume me saying such a thing is an insult? How? How could stating that a woman is obviously highly favored by God, and at the same time, showing you that she is not God, imply disrespect? You look through a distorted lens and you will find a distorted image. I have said nothing wrong. Neither have I “talked about” Mary in a disrespectful way, but deifying her, without coming right out and saying such a thing, but rather doing so and so very obviously denying that you do, is not going to sit right with many, including myself. Take that for what it is, but what it isn’t, is an insult.
Biblical belief:
Acts 16:30-31″
“30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, WHAT must I do to be SAVED?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Never, ever, ever a mention of Mary. Ever! Expect by Catholics.
Catholic belief:
“None, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]
For the edification of anyone reading these posts, Anthony is most assuredly correct when he points out that Mary is not God; how could she be, she was created by God and therefore she is a creature with a beginning and end, she is not God.
Rather than taking the word of a person or people who are not Catholic and mostly know what they have heard or been taught, let me, a practicing Catholic inform you about what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary. But first you will need to appreciate the Church’s position on teaching doctrine; that which Catholics are bound to profess as part of their faith if they are to remain in full communion with this world wide Church. The Church teaches the divinely revealed Truth about the life and teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ from three branches of authority; it teaches from the authority of the Apostolic Church ( the Apostles and their line of successors )
it teaches from the authority of the Papacy ( the leader of the Church chosen by Christ Himself and Peter’s successors ) and it teaches from the Bible, the Sacred Scriptures as canonized by the Catholic Church in the early centuries of Christianity. The first two authorities are explicitly mentioned in Sacred Scripture which we know from history, came after the apostles and Peter who went about the world baptizing new Christians in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, just as they were commanded to do at the end of John’s gospel, which was written at least four decades after the fact. Once a person is able to come to an understanding of how and why the Catholic Church draws it’s doctrines from three legitimate sources, one can then begin to understand how the Church professes truths about Mary, not explicit in the Bible.
There are three doctrines concerning Mary that the Church holds to be the divinely inspired truth regarding Mary; First, she is the mother of God, not the woman who gave birth to the Most Holy and Blessed Trinity which has no beginning or end but she cooperated in becoming the Ark of the new and everlasting covenant, Jesus Christ. Since the Church has always taught that the Messiah is fully human ( but without sin ) and He is fully divine ( God ), Mary cannot be the mother of the human Jesus but not the mother of the divine Jesus, because the two natures are not separate but fully united. Next, drawing from the totality of scripture and the references in both the Old and New Testaments, the Apostolic Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin. If you think about this at any length, you begin to appreciate the real unlikelihood that the Holy Spirit would have overshadowed and our Lord would have entered the womb of a woman with original sin or any sin, great or small. And lastly, the Church teaches that Mary was assumed into Heaven, body and soul, meaning that her physical body was glorified by God and never suffered corruption the way Eve and all her offspring did.
If Catholics were forced to point to one or more verses in the Bible to substantiate these professions, they couldn’t, but they aren’t forced to limit their divinely revealed beliefs to only Sacred Scripture because they have the testimony of the Apostles, Peter, and their successors, to draw from.
We can go back and forth with the ” where in the Bible does it say that ” contest but since we as Christians with different perspectives on how divine truth has been revealed by God, we can never come to a total agreement. We have the reformation of the 16th century to blame for that sad reality.
In finishing, we don’t worship Mary but we do seek her prayers and intercession and through her Immaculate Heart, we hope to enter into the Sacred Heart of Jesus. You will say that is unnecessary, we believe otherwise and upon our individual deaths and the final judgement, we will all find out who had the better information, the full Truth.
“the Apostolic Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin.”
THIS is what we’re debating. This is what contradicts what the bible teaches. I don’t know how, why, or when it happened, but it is written that only GOD is without sin. Mary called God her SAVIOR? Tell me: WHAT exactly did she need God to save her from? Will you answer this question for me? Of course not.
Also, you go on to say, “you begin to appreciate the real unlikelihood that the Holy Spirit would have overshadowed and our Lord would have entered the womb of a woman with original sin or any sin, great or small.”
So then by YOUR logic, NO MAN ON EARTH can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because we are all sinners? By your logic, one must be a NON SINNER to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
You say, “If Catholics were forced to point to one or more verses in the Bible to substantiate these professions, they couldn’t, but they aren’t forced to limit their divinely revealed beliefs to only Sacred Scripture because they have the testimony of the Apostles, Peter, and their successors, to draw from.”
John, what you fail to understand over and over again is this. Our disagreement is NOT (please understand this) because what you say is NOT in the bible, it’s because what you claim is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to that which is stated in the bible. Do you get that? It would be one thing if NO WHERE in the bible was it written that only ONE is good and without sin, then you could say, “Mary is without sin” and no one could open their mouths, because we simply wouldn’t know, but that is NOT THE CASE, we DO know, it’s written!
You say, “We can go back and forth with the ” where in the Bible does it say that”
Again, try to follow what we are NOT saying that. Please.
You say, “In finishing, we don’t worship Mary but we do seek her prayers and intercession and through her Immaculate Heart”
Again, you say one thing, but do another.
2 Corinthians 11:3, 4:
“3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
“In Christ.” Like I said above, Satan is a deceiver, but what he has mastered, is the art of subtlety. What you are doing is attempting to sway attention from obvious worship status that you’ve placed on Mary. Whether intentional or not, only God knows.
“NONE obtains salvation except through”…MARY? Really? What more needs to be said? This is the core of Catholic belief. No one has come out and directly stated that, “MARY IS GOD”, but how much more obvious can it be that you think of her as such?
How many times have people been saved SIMPLY (yes, SIMPLY) by believing in JESUS, our SAVIOR? How many times? Many were saved THEN by believing ONLY in Jesus and MANY will be saved TODAY by believing ONLY in Jesus. God doesn’t change, men change. Which is why Catholics believe that our salvation is —strictly— through Mary? And that (get this) “NONE” receives salvation but through HER.
Amazing!